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Lineage of spiritual masters.
  • Roman April 2011
    Posts: 347
    There is another testimony on the abuse website http://www.swamiji-maheshwarananda-abuse.com/#!5d of devotee 5. It is difficult to swallow but read it carefully. Then do the real analysis using all you have including that little voice within yourself which tells you not to cross the street when big truck is coming. It is not your enemy, it’s your friend. Voice of your intimate self. My hart goes out to you, devotee 5 and all the others. You are safe now.
  • batawebatawe April 2011
    Posts: 409
    well, this is some hard info again...if sexual impulses or some remnants of them are still there in the person, does this mean that the person is not enlightened (whatever that may be=realization of "I am not the body?";), maybe he is, but his body is not;)----maybe we should write a book: "Saints and the women as their last test before enlightenment";))
  • Roman April 2011
    Posts: 347
    It is not about self-realization. It's about freaking abuse. I don't care who you are. But if you harm my children you are as good as dead. If somebody is so called "self-realized" why would they abuse their children/disciples? The "test" explanation part does not cut it.
  • batawebatawe April 2011
    Posts: 409
    yes, that was my implicit point, of course, there is no room here for abusing the role that you took upon yourself and the spiritual children/disciples, that's self-obvious and it destroys the "image", which I guess is always something else, than what is behind the image...
  • joyriver April 2011
    Posts: 101
    Darkness behind the image...
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] April 2011
    Posts: 0
    An enlightened being is full, filled with bliss, feeling pure perfection, so they don't need anything, they have no desires, especially not physical and sexual ones. Looking for explanations and excuses to justify why a so called enlightened being seeked sexual act is just a tool they used over many years to abuse and manipulate people. Very sad and hard to swallow when you believe in something 300% but that's how it is.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] April 2011
    Posts: 0
    YIDL bhaktas, how does it feel your own guru abusing your own child in the name of seva?
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] April 2011
    Posts: 0
    What is seva at YIDL?
  • Roman April 2011
    Posts: 347
    Slavery.
  • batawebatawe April 2011
    Posts: 409
    the same as you would feel, the answer is already in the question...

    we have two dimensions, relations, structural relation of Master & Slave...every relation (from parental to partnership etc...) includes this minimal amount of domineering element, it just depends how much un/conscious it is...

    the analysis of this topic must include both parties and their own logic...

    the status of the 'victim' is much as problematic as the status of the 'master'...

    the essential weakness, lack of will and decision on the part of the victim is as much a problematic issue, as it is a dominating action/s of the master...

    both need each other, and how to cut the bonds and dependence of the stronger party is an another problem...

    as long as the Other looks Self-possessed, fulfilled, and a "subject" that takes the position of a 'slave', who lacks the self-possession, than the transference of love and projection onto the Other can begin, finding all the desires catalyzed and 'fulfilled' in that Other...

    the Other does not exist!
  • Roman April 2011
    Posts: 347
    Another dimension:

    Ask black people in the US how they feel about the whole thing.
  • Ivan May 2011
    Posts: 161
    Hi, in this lineage part I would like to post a few concerns about Lila Amrit and the whole lineage problem in YIDL. In late nineties I got a hint from editor of Lila Amrit that in edition after edition new stories are appearing and that swAmi is responsible for "discovering" them (the editor was highly sarcastic about the whole issue as people knowing a lot and still being loyal are). I have checked out old hindi editions and the old English one from which this fabrications are obvious. If I remember correctly the story about Mahaprabhuji meeting Gandhi was put into Croatian edition from 1995 for the first time, later becoming regular. Unfortunately, when I left I have disposed my Lila Amrits in garbage dumpster. But this is funny: once I asked Govinda about historical Mahaprabhuji (being excellent in hindi he was able to talk with a lot of people from Nipal and Khatu) and he told me: look, it is a book about Old GUru, not about Mahaprabhuji...
    The big problems are the pictures of young Mahaprabhuji. If he was born in 1828 when are this photos taken? In 1850, 1860-ties?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_photography
    Once I saw a picture of very young Mahaprabhuji of excellent quality. My guess would be that he died in 1963 his eighties, probably being born around 1880 and the pictures were taken around 1910-1920. Such pictures were possible in rural Rajasthan in that time, but in 1850 no way.
    Second: Devpuriji died in 1942 (it says so on his grave in Kailas but also on official web of YIDL). If Mahaprabhuji was born in 1828 and Depuriji must be older how the hell was he old when he died??
    Ivan Andrijanić, Zagreb, Croatia
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    That story about M. meeting Gandhi was the one I had the most doubts about, it seemed to good to be true. Now it looks like my suspicions were correct.
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Old GUru was born in the year 1923, in the early1940's he was staying with Mahaprabhuji at Mount Abu, where Mahaprabhuji told him about the divine prophecy that Devpuriji already made about future coming of M/swAmi, that means Old GUru was around 17 years old at that time and I have found on the internet/FB one picture with Old GUru and some other people and Mahaprabhuji, and I would give Old GUru max 30 years on that picture (still having the beard and knotted hair), somewhere around 1953, I would guess it was taken...as I remember swAmi was born on 1945, from his 13th year he was at ashram and when he was 17, he was ordained as swami, which means already in the year 1958 (when he was 13) or even earlier he could already met Mahaprabhuji who left the world in 1963, but I didn't read anywhere about physically meeting with Mahaprabhuji, or is it just presupposed or unimportant...in Lila Amrit, it is just a brief and non-detailed information of how he was ordained as swami and he had to perform strict anusthana etc (for more than 20 hours every day)...and after 6 months of fasting and meditation he had vision of Mahaprabhuji etc...
  • Tony May 2011
    Posts: 172
    My favourite Leela Amrit story is about the very first version, which was a thin orange booklet called "My Master". Written in grade three English, ubernaive and wholly embarassing, but, it was the first, it started the whole fantasy series.

    My favourite part was when Devpuriji, whilst initiating his newfound successor, "Deep", lights up "a hashish pipe (a narcotic plant)." Shortly after comes the famous scene where (now completely stoned) Devpuriji slices up Deep's palms with a pocket knife.

    The later revisions were cleaned up. Shame.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    It is all BS. In the original Living Light there was no mention about the above any comparison enlightened person (ie M) coming to West. I don't know if people know that swAmi came first to the West (Czechoslovakia, well not exactly the West :) as a translator for Old GUru. I guess he liked the Czech chicks and decided to cultivate the relationship. He realized that editing of first version of “holy book” was needed after he settled in Vienna (because Old GUru's version was quite naïve and not focused on anything else than his backyard) and so he had his uncle to rewrite it with his uncompromising input. I remember that quite well because I was in the middle of editing at that time in Vienna. I was naïve too and thought that it was a good thing. Make things more appealing to spread the word of Rajastani gospel. Stupid me. I know that I had an awkward feeling in my stomach anytime people would ask me: “How come we never heard of this ever longest living man from India?” (Meaning Mahaprabhuji). Here is the excerpt prom Wikipedia about longest living people:

    The longest unambiguously documented human lifespan is that of Jeanne Calment of France (1875-1997), who died at age 122 years, 164 days. She met Vincent van Gogh at age 12 or 13.[1] This led to news media attention in 1985, after Calment turned 110. Subsequent investigation found documentation for Calment's age, beyond any reasonable question, in the records of her native city, Arles, France.[2
    Since the death of Eunice Sanborn of Texas, United States, on 31 January 2011, the oldest person in the world whose age can be documented is 114-year-old Besse Cooper, of Georgia, United States, who was born on 26 August 1896. The oldest living man since the death of Walter Breuning on 14 April 2011 is 114-year-old Jiroemon Kimura, of Japan, who was born on 19 April 1897.[4]
    Well, I guess, one hundred times repeated lie can become truth at least to some people. These are the facts - people like Ann. Can’t you read? Of course, people who write about these things don’t have an enlightened master. (Thanks god!)

    It is also very interesting about Mahatma Gandhi. swAmi never liked him in the old days. His views were different than Gandhi’s belief in secular republic. Excerpts from Wikipedia about Gandhi’s assassination:

    On 30 January 1948, Gandhi was shot while he was walking to a platform from which he was to address a prayer meeting. The assassin, Nathuram Godse, was a Hindu nationalist with links to the extremist Hindu Mahasabha, who held Gandhi responsible for weakening India by insisting upon a payment to Pakistan.[53] Godse and his co-conspirator Narayan Apte were later tried and convicted; they were executed on 15 November 1949.

    swAmiwaranada was always on the side of conservative, Hindu nationalist politics in India. I remember once swAmi talking about Devpuriji (the old old guy in the lineage) manifesting his supreme powers of knowing the future by riding a horse in the villages around Kailas before the sunrise, calling: “Run away, she is coming, run away, she is coming!” swAmi explained that he was warning everybody from coming of the republic. That was what Gandhi was working on his whole life and for what he was killed. I think this whole lineage is a very little of truth and most of made up stories based on convenience. After swAmi had learned that it does not go well in the West not to be pro Gandhi, he started warming up to him. (Especially after the Gandhi movie was out. You could not be against him as a matter of any sensible PR). How to make the switch? Put it in the holy book. Once it’s “documented” it’s reality. And again, there are many witnesses to this, I am not making it up. Some of you reading this may remember. Especially people from Gujarat.

    Sorry for my commentary being almost as long as batawe’s (just kidding, bro :) but the holy books stuff needs some clarification. Lots of people hold them for absolute truth. Go figure.
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    haha, no worry Roman;), my comments are a cut version;))), just kiding, I just go with the flow, but I must restrain myself occasionally, doing my best;)
    well, like I said, after several years, after re-reading it, I found those moments when you feel like things come or solve themselves like "deus ex machina", when everything is interwoven and glued together like any other mythological stories; even if the persons are real, at least for some we believe in, afterwards stories about them can get this mythological character, depends on who writes and what is the reason of handing down the line, stories which definitely get twisted through many ears and mouths...like I wrote somewhere already, myths jump in as a certain filling of the gap, a certain "structural empty point", where no explanation is possible (like the origin of the universe, or the source/reason of the first Law; than comes the first law giver Manu in indian mythology etc...) and it all sounds quite irrational, that's why we call it a myth; we get this fabulas, stories nobody understands the real meaning, and if you search for the meaning you get approximations, which means, probably "the reality as such", cannot be explained (probably 'experienced', but you must first vanish as the experiencer, like in samadhi - than all is gone, you and the world and everything...)

    and one fundamental problem, in all the known classical approaches of religion and spirituality, is that always there is some personage that is erected as the final authority, god himself or the representative of god etc... and sooner or later you feel confined to that specific path which is god-ordained, and they all tell the same story everywhere, their God is the One, and there is always some fundamental philosophy behind it, rooted in tradition,,,but the main 'philosophy' of all the known religions and spiritual paths is this: "this world is a prison, like the body; finding god means to purify yourself (from the worldliness), god is beyond, you must do the right things to enter the kingdom of god etc..." and this dualistic point of view, doesn't solve anything...just one thing: god must be an element already included in this formula of Life, on this plane of existence (whatever the other planes might be) and if things that are here at stake, are not just things, that are at stake for us, but for "god/or That/XY" also, if what here is happening is also concerning that same Life, that which we are the manifestation of, than the remote god beyond, doesn't serve our purpose...I like this statement that "it's not us who believe or trust in god but god trusts us",,,it is left on us, we must do it...we must show our spirits here, not somewhere beyond...and to be little more philosophical, this manifestation is the manifestation of That Life, here as much as in the beyond, and maybe even more here, than anywhere else...to paraphrase Aurobindian thought, of That, which went into manifestation "to find Itself in other conditions than supracosmic or transcendental..."...and all this black & white mathematical formulations of karma and reincarnation doesn't solve the complexities nor problems of life in trying to render it more digestable and understandable...Creation is God's own work-therapy, to heal 'himself' form his own lunacy of Oneness;)...who said that what was before as ONE (One already entails in itself the Difference, Unity! Unity of what difference?), that that One, was something that was contentment-in-itself, but this "One became Many", as we know and it was pushed in Creation, and Creation is God Himself, finding himself in circumstances, where he's gonna heal himself/herself/itself;) and is much in the game as we are, He/It/That/ is all this, it's happening all around;)...we must save our souls first, but what about the rest of the world?, if I save myself and get realized, what happens,,the world is still there,,,is the world realized and saved? NO! Problem remains, so simple answers won't go. Whoever escapes the problem by dissolving the world (by dissolving himself first), didn't made any solution to the problem, in that sense, all the religious attempts to save their own soul, looks much selfish...I will go to heaven and where will you go, who gives a fu..k!...I will go to god and god will love me...I am special, more advanced and I understand, not like those donkeys and pigs wallowing in the mud and I will with my good deeds and merits go to heaven...age of enlightenment!

    ___regarding Gandhi, I read somewhere that he succeeded with englishmen with his approach, but if Germans tried to invade, his method would go down the drain;)...and he was much violent in his non-violent methods, his non-violent method as such was so violent that everybody had to fall under his violent fast-strikes etc...

    http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-on-gandhi-osho-discourse-on-mahatma-gandhi/

  • michalsladek May 2011
    Posts: 17
    Ha ha, Tony, I can remember that story about Devpuriji smoking hashish too!
  • michalsladek May 2011
    Posts: 17
    Roman, are you sure about swAmi coming to Europe first time to translate for Old GUru? I remember seing a photo showing young swAmi with Niranjanand (who was just a boy then) and another monk somewhere in Europe. My guess would be that swAmi's first visit to Europe would be with (and perhaps even sponsored by) Swami Satyananda Saraswati.

    For those outside Australia: there is quite a strong group of disciples here of Swami Satyananda Saraswati, who is a disciple of Swami Shivananda from Rishikesh, and whose spiritual successor is Swami Niranjanand- a radiant, beautiful person with much wisdom, I have been once to his yoga seminar in Mangrove Mountains.

    Swami Satyananda started Bihar School of Yoga which had quite a name already in days of swAmi's youth and this is where Old GUru sent swAmi to learn yoga. This is well known. What is perhaps less known that if you look into their books you will find that swAmi used the same postures (I am talking now about the book 'Asana Pranayama Mudra Bandha') and merely arranged them into a gradual system. Also yoga nidra and some kriyas came from Satyananda (see 'Kundalini Tantra'), as well as all the pranayamas. It is very obvious to me that YIDL comes from Satyananda (with exception of new part 1, part 7 and 8, and Yoga agains Back Pain- this one in particular is quite good and original and I am grateful to the unknown Czech devotee who created it). Satyananda is a humble person and until recently regarded yoga knowledge as heritage of all humanity until about 5 years ago when Niranjanand realised that in today's world of copyrights it is necessary to create 'Satyananda Yoga' for their own protection.

    I also know that people from Satyananda's group don't like YIDL much and that years ago Satyananda was quite angry with swAmi about something. I don't know much more, but it looks like misused trust to me. I could be wrong...
  • Ivan May 2011
    Posts: 161
    Well guys, do you think it is possible to reconstruct swAmi's early days? According to my informations, actually a YIDL rumour, he came in 1972 to Graz with a passport which had a faked year of birth (the real year would be 1952?). There he supposedly worked as a house painter, later moving to Vienna where he met this elderly Austrian woman who helped him and left him Schikanederstrasse. Is this Graz part the truth?
    Quite a big problem in lineage is old gUru's relationship with Mahaprabhuji. I know for quite a sure that old gUru was expelled from ashram (supposedly because of "jealousy") and that he couldn't attend the funeral. In my time there was a period when swAmi couldn’t come to Khatu ("jealousy" again) because of that moustached guy who was taking care of ashram (he is Mahaprabhuji's cousin). My experience of Old GUru was that he was extremely rude primitive man, exactly the type who wrote the early funny naive hindi Lila amrits who was interested only in Pakistanis and who (from Nipal) is engaged/married to whom. I'm so sorry that I don't have the old hindi edition. I checked out Mahaprabhuji's book śrī vijñānadīpagītā. It's a Sanskrit text heavily influenced by Bhagavadgītā with old gUru's again naive hindi commentaries. Unfortunately nothing on history, only religious bullcrap. And for this also- someone told me that Mahaprabhuji didn't write it but some pandit on Mahaprabhuji's instruction...
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Regarding "swAmi's" conservatism, I was already worried last year about swAmi meeting Ramdev at the Kumbh Mela. I had read about him before, he's a reactionary. Just an example from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramdevism#Controversies_and_criticisms):

    In July 2009, in the wake of the Delhi High Court decriminalizing homosexuality in Delhi, Baba told the press "The verdict will encourage criminality and sick mentality. This kind of thing is shameful and insulting. We are blindly following the West in everything. This is breaking the family system in India. Homosexuals are sick people, they should be sent to hospitals for treatment. If the government brings this law, I will take to the streets of Delhi in protest."

    Gives you an idea where swAmi's sympathy goes.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] May 2011
    Posts: 0
    Dear Roman,
    do you know anything about Pagal Baba, he was one of religious leaders of Kumbh Mela in 90., Naga Baba Sadhu, with titles sri swami or rajishwaranand giri, from Niranjani Akhare (Naga-Dhuna Guru)]

    Pagal Baba was in 90. in contacts with swAmi and invited him to Kumbh Mela - till then YIDL has never been invited there. In 90. Pagal Baba lived in Slovenia, He has never played guru even he has guru status under Hindu religious hierarchy. In 90. he was 65.y old and maybe he is still alive, could be as he was extremely vital and healthy yogi man.

    Here to remind you:

    Pagal Baba talking about [You will get what you need]
    http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ePsQQDbhXZI
  • satfinder May 2011
    Posts: 24
    Naga Baba Sadhu Pagal Baba talking about [You will get what you need]

    In the 90. Pagal Baba
    [Sri Swami Pagal Baba, member of the Niranjani Akhara],
    was one of the religious leaders of Kumbh Mela . ...


    Pagal Baba with one of his friends ...
    http://tinyurl.com/469pm73
    [Source: google search engine.]

    On the link below [3bb-farm.com] i see, ha ha ha:
    Pagal Baba with new titles and name:
    Rajishwaranand Giri [ Niranjani Akhara] Naga Dhuna Guru.

    In Slovenia in the 90. Pagal Baba did not want to bi the guru ...
    Some people have wanted to Pagal Baba be the guru.
    He had not wanted to play "the guru game". Ha ha ha. -)
    Pagal Baba have wanted to only the friendship. -)

    He has knew Satyananda Saraswati personally, ...
    He has knew the young man who was sented to USA ...
    by Satyananda Saraswati ... He has knew a lot of people.
    ...
    http://www.3bb-farm.com/projekt01/media/img/pagal.jpg
    http://www.3bb-farm.com/projekt01/cat3.html&sid=0604996aadf036eb2568524ecb52b51a

    Pagal Baba vs Osho
    http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/innercontent.asp?FileName=biography3/03-12-pagal.txt
    http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-on-pagal-baba/


    Maybe P.B. knows something more about "dakshina",
    ..., a man of Indian origin who lives abroad, ...
    How to swAmi have made the contact to Mahanirvani Akhara ...

    He have said to me about yidl, "gurus" on the west ...:
    "It's Commerce. ..." in the 1993 [or 1994]. ...

    P.B. likes the Truth ... I know.
    He has a lot of informations ...
    Someone can make contact to him.
    Of course, if he is still alive. ...
    On the link: 3bb-farm.com about Pagal Baba I was reading:
    "unser noch lebender": still live ... -)
    http://sexabuseyidl.net/discussion/comment/96#Comment_96
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    @michalsladek: Do you think this satyananda yoga is trustworthy? I don't think I can trust any guru ever again, I have had enough.
  • satfinder May 2011
    Posts: 24
    You are right. ... -)
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    ok, let's check the books what they say, what is written in vedas etc...we can chekc what indian heritage has; we can become expounders of the hinduism or not, or we can just see what is there left and we can study and we can examine critically of what is there, but one thing remains: indian saints and wisdom-people could benefit not just West, but their own Eastern people...today's life is much more complex than in times of vedic rishis I would say, even if we don't know how they lived, nor is it important...if you don't upgrade yourself today you are oldschool...and todays saints and people from india, many of them are just oldschool and to be naked and the vows of (outer) renunciation is just frankly stupid, remnant of the old past, no problem, if that's your choice, but it's not an universal rule neither it has any objective truth in it whatsoever...and let the indian people learn form the indian saints, why don't hey proper in their own country, some do, but with help of westerners also,,,westerners who become even more indians than the indians themselves are ridiculous, it's like changing clothes, what have you done?, maybe it's more exotic and cool, to walk around with the tilak on your forehead and be 'free', 'spiritual', an indian! marvelouss...like that saying: "secrets of the egyptians were the secrets to the egyptians themselves", which means there is something in every culture that is evasiev to the culture itself,,,thoughb we do it and repeat it, we don't know actually form where it comes nor why do we do it and not to mention elaborate ceremonies done for this or that, for propitiating gods and whatsover to please our desires and to look more acceptable in the eyes of god...maybe it worked for the rural people and people who needed guidance in every aspcet of their lives but it looks like an insult to the modern man of today, yes, modern, and it is like it is...eskymo is not an indian nor vice versa, cultures are different, even thought-patterns etc...and you are more or less bound by that...however you transcend or want to become one with god, you still remain rooted in some cultural onset and tradition and you speak through that filter...we are here, today we can check many information, read (yes, read, use intellectual power and discern), we can even go to study, go to india, study sanskrt, ok, why not...but become critical, let's move the limits of knowledge, or we want to become f..parrots...that's general problem........indians now have answers to our questions, great, "I will go to India and I will become enlightened", good luck---

    They look like good businessman these modern yogi's, from Ramdev to some other and if we look more deep what is the message what is the core of the mission, it's just conservative spiritual politics...like religion that serves the state, where state fails, religions comes and amends...we suffer for the greater purpose (god tests our belief...;)

    even modern indians don't bother much about their heritage nor naga babas, but we need them right?, they will give deep answers to our problems and cure us of modern neurotic life, probably...

    even naga babas in india all the ascetics serve the social function in their midst, as a catalyzator for the society's wrong doings; we go and pay some respects, do some ceremonies (we have priests and naga babas) and than we come back and do our daily business...they left their homes (babas) but got their new families of babas and they are a part of society as much as the multi-businessman of india and in some way even the businessman needs the nagaba on the other side,,,I can earn money and be greedy, because there are already people who renounced their life, so that I can proper and than give charity; I know I am a 'sinner', but I will purify myself through occasional spiritual ceremonies, or better, I am already indirectly puryfying myself through that naga baba,,,even businessman is indirectly purified through those ascetics, who 'pay' the price of our greediness and the society functions perfectly...

    let's import some gods and all will be fine...
  • satfinder May 2011
    Posts: 24
    The fairy tales from Lila Amrit ...
  • Ivan May 2011
    Posts: 161
    Oh man, this is such a hypocrisy, I have heard with my own ears swAmi bashing Sai Baba, he hated his guts. Once he was descibing which tricks Sai Baba is using to materialise stuff. Actually swAmi told that he had seen it on a documentary on television haha... Some guru
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Michale, about him coming to Europe with the old guy first, I saw the picture which you've seen possibly too, him and old man with swAmi really young. It was suppose to be in Czechoslovakia but you know what? Who the heck knows? Many of those older ladies who brought us to him were convinced that they were his gopies. Everybody knows about his time at Satyananda and I’ve heard him many times badmouthing him. You know how he always did it. Well, he is good, BUT…. And a load of sh***t follows. So to answer your question, I don’t really know and also I don’t care.
  • Ivan May 2011
    Posts: 161
    Well, according to an old Czech YIDL almanac, swAmi came for the first time in Czechoslovakia in 1973 by train from Wien and held a seminar in Olomouc. There was two photos from that seminar and swAmi still didn't have a beard. There was around 30 people there. The text said that he wasn't allowed to talk about spirituality but he sang a bhajan (that must have sounded great regarding his vocal capabilities). After that he became regular, visiting Czechoslovakia every year. According to the almanac Old GUru came to Czechoslovakia for the first time in 1975 and there is a photo from that visit, swAmi with beard but without sunglasses. I don't believe that swAmi was only an interpreter because with Old GUru you don't have anything to interpret. The only thing he knew was how to torture his poor sevakas in Jaipur and Jadan...
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