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Re-evaluation of the situation or "where do I stand?"
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    reply to mangal and someonefromhungary: ;))
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    paradoxes of human life:
    if life tells me "f__k off" then life leads 1-0 against me
    if I tell life "f__k off" then life leads 2-0 against me
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    we don't have a chance;)
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    of course not :D
    and knowing this is the only point we can score during the entire match before getting the guaranteed red card :D
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    yes, you're right, knowing it, is already a point for us;) regardless of getting the red card;)
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    big organisation, big name, big agenda and many disciples following the prescribed methods of how to attain stressful state and finally, slowly but surely reach the 'enlightenment', it sounds simple and when we start practising something, especially 'the spiritual stuff' we feel important; we do something other people don't do, and we know something other people don't etc. and it makes us special and important;

    we develop different outlooks and we begin to see this world as 'unreal', and we all want to live in timeless NOW etc...behind all the practices there is in fact many philosophical postulates but which become for practitioners the practical possibility of realizing them, like when we say the word "Absolute" or "Totality" etc., or "Unity",

    and though we think we know what we say (and we usually take this things to exist like tomatoes and potatoes i..e. empirical objects), we wrongly assume that not only we understand these words, but we are going to realize the things that the words represent or they refer to, like the word "potato" to the real potato in the field...

    like I already wrote before; it's not only that we use words and sentences to describe something that actually exists, but our reality is structured by and upon our sentences also; where is the 'thing' called "Infinity" ?;

    we already give meaning to the words we use as the words that mean/represent something, even if they only represent themselves for themselves, with no referent on the outside; concept, idea, a symbol,,,it's symbolic reality, we are in the search of the "Absolute", the knowledge we want to obtain, that which we call the Absolute 'Knowledge';

    but that which we want to grasp or hold by its tail is always somehow missing, becomes evasive, the moment we thought we have it, we realize we have nothing in our hands...this same 'Absolute', becomes the "driving force" for the knowledge itself, like we presume, that "God is something substantial", or if not the REAL THING that is called GOD,

    let's say that the word "God" represents something which is substantial, something which is true in itself, it stands on its own and we as poor subjects that we seek something permanent and substantial, we find that in "GOD" - the final substance of our highest seeking 'pleasure', the privileged 'object' in which all our desires and wants will be fulfilled (or nullified?) etc.
    (already here we can see, how two dimensions cross each other; we can talk or speak about god and all the metaphysical subjects as they pertain to their own level of spoken word, as the reality of propositionality, but at the same time, we asume that we actually speak of a actual god and of our actual/possible realization of that actuality)..

    so if "God " is something substantial and we later say or define his substantiality with endless predicates like "God is eternal, infinite, unfathomable, pure, divine, birthless etc...", whatever possible predicate we give, they are theoretically infinite, as the "God" is infinite, so must be his attributes etc...so, this static point of GOD, its position somehow looks 'fixed in itself' and its subsequent predicates are only an attributes which fall-for-us, they-are-for-us, for-our-knowledge...

    but if we look closely, we can see that predicates are precisely the thing which gives 'life' to the substance of the subject (god), that the thing-in-itself (self-contained, static point of god) must become thing-for-us and our knowledge about the so called Substance...we define the God/Substance with endless predicates (God is eternal...), to 'catch' the Absolute in-itself, in its identity, but our attempt always fails; predicates never exhaust the Subject and its 'fullness'; but this same 'fullness' is nothing but 'emptiness', around which we can glue all the possible predicates and never 'fill in' that void...

    without predicates there is no 'creation'...predicates and definitions circle around the empty point of "abstract generality", called by/with the Word - the Infinite or the Absolute---
  • Durchanand June 2011
    Posts: 74
    Reply to @batawe:

    You are searching for me? I am sitting next to you. My shoulder on yours. You don´t hear me in the stupas. Not in the temple nor in the synagogues, mosques or cathedrals. Not in the masses of people, not in religious singing, not by coiling your legs around your own neck. Also not through eating nothing else but vegetables. If you really search for me you can see me anytime immediately. you find me in the smallest house of time. Kabir asks: Seeker, tell me what is god? - he is the breath within the breath ...

    ... Neither the teacher nor the disciple is right. Just a mere play of deceit and greediness. The one who tries to cross the ocean with a stone boat will surely drown. All mantras and practices are null and void and lead you astray. Let noone get trapped in this pitfall ...

    ... I am laughing when I hear that the fish is thirsty. You do not understand the fact that the most vivid, the most lively thing of all lives in your house. And so you wander with a confused sight from one holy city to the next. Kabir wants to tell you the truth: wherever you will go, to Kolkata or Tibet, as long as you do not know where your soul is hidden, the world will never be real for you! There is nothing but water in the holy pools. I know because I have been swimming in them. All the sculptures of the deities made from ivory and wood they do not speak a thing. I know that. I have been shouting at them. The holy books from the east are nothing but words. I have browsed them in one day. That what Kabir is talking about is only that what he lived through. If you haven´t lived through something yourself - then it is not true ...
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @Durchanand: nice one from Kabir. I say;: Correctamundo! We are already in/that 'water' all the time...
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    now all these things are far reaching Ideal, if we want to realize it somehow like experiencing the 'Potato' (and there are many 'potatoes' in the land of the 'Absolute'), but before we pursue these high ideals of subjective-samadhi-consciousness, big-crunching-it-back-to-our-true-nature, how come that simple things of trying to understand the mechanisms of our lives here, need more or less to be transcended, not really understood and handled, but suspended for some highest good and indefinitely 'stretched' by the strings of faith in a better world somewhere else?

    And before we try to reach the Absolute, let's see what we have here, in all its details of life and work on the things and problems here...by just believing in something/someone and waiting to become a reality for-us sometime in the future, makes no real sense...

    nobody can GIVE us freedom---it's not something to be given, it needs to be attained or re-cognized...we jail ourselves all the time---
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    Excerpts from a mail:

    And you can always find, if you look deeply, some sort of 'pathology' (at least it appears so) in all the stories about saints and their, so called "divine exploits". Not to even mention the major religious scriptures which are full of that, but believer is not a believer if s/he doesn't believe - clarification, intellectual approach, critical thinking etc., all this is excluded from the true believer's mind.

    Life is more complex regardless of our simplification, like in the spiritual field: just meditate and all will be fine...every kind of extreme position makes the other side suffer; if you are too materialistic (which is not a problem) and you don't have time to stop and reflect (which can become a problem) or if you are extremely spiritual you can neglect material aspect and what normally pertains to the physical-side of life: good clothes, food and shelter.

    The main problem is, that whatever we read in the books about the saints etc., or we read some divinely inspired scriptures; all the perfections that were talked about, we projected that to our Guru, who is like God and God doesn't go wrong, neither makes mistakes;)..

    that is the reason why is problematic to worship anybody like God, and even if the real God of Gods would come to earth (hypothetically;), even s/he would have a problem if s/he wanted to 'act as god';))...the moment we are here as phenomenal beings, 'separate', individual (my thesis is: that to become a real individual demands much effort and time; I think we do not have individuality that we think we have, as if given by birth already; individuality is something that needs to be crystalized, not just suspended or annihilated).

    In this sense, it's easy to understand and theoretically accept, that every kind of "phenomenal being" can and will make mistakes. And our projection or the fantasm, was, that the saints do not err, do not make mistakes and do everything, according to some secret plan or by their own divine unfathomable-for-us superconsciousness.

    And not only that, but it strangely reveals the 'pathology' of "fantasm of saints", who are 'finished' or transcended their own sexuality. And sexuality remains as the main element, ingredient, the crucial thing upon which all spirituality is built; to go beyond sex, means to go beyond the 'world of creation and death'; sexuality reminds us of our mortality: sexuality is mortality!

    And to go beyond sex, means to reach Immortality. These are the premises of the spiritual mind; however they try to transcend sex, they are somehow always connected to it, probably even more, as their spiritual building is anchored by their own 'tamed' sexuality. But at the same time "sexuality as such" doesn't exist at all; it's not some substance which we can point with the finger and say "here it is".

    It shifts and finds its ways through many different doors; even from freudian perspective (it's a wrong conclusion to say, that Freud spoke about sexuality as something which is coherent in itself and advocated and defended normal against the perverse sexuality - the problematics of sexuality is much evasive subject as much as its own permutations in human body and psyche), we can state that "sexuality" can manifest in many different forms;

    there is no activity which can not be 'sexualized'; even excessive intellectual work might produce some sort of 'sexual' excitation etc., just name it, not to mention sport activity etc...but we talk about sexuality in its concrete form in relation to the actual human act of coitus, two individuals having sex under normal conditions where both acts are consensual etc.

    So, what to say about saints, who's libido also jumps out for a 'few seconds' and tries to see, what's it all about? Possible answer is, that if you have body and have sexual organs, they might be used or not; and even saint - who transcended sex with his/hers unflinching devotion to god - probably gets some "vritti" to check his/hers authenticity of devotion.;)

    Anyway, either saints should remain saints and have nothing to do with sex (unless they are married, like many other 'saints'), or the definiton and social positioning of saint should be redefined:

    it's not the "sex as such" the main problem; the main problem is obvious: in what conditions, under what parameters sex occurs?

    In this sense, problematics of sex/sexual acts are socially conditioned; our sexuality is not just animal sexuality of two animals meeting in the woods and humping each other as quickly as possible; we don't have 'sex' with a "body per se" anymore but with symbolic identity: we do not fu..k with person's body but his/her symbolic role - with president, with a poet, with actor etc...like in this movie, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0834170/

    where woman thought this guy was a poet and later he said to her that he is just a porter and she walked out immediately when she heard that (with poet I can have sex but not with the porter)...

    Maybe "Nature" doesn't care who fu..ks with whom, but we do not live anymore in the "authentic and original Nature" (and it's probably a myth that we lived it sometime in the distant past), as social beings with our roles that we maintain and have and hierarchies of positions etc., you can get the hint where the perversity starts:

    you can manipulate with your social position (higher you are on the hierarchical chain, the greater the 'mastery' of 'lower' hierarchical chains)...and here we have also an another hint: this "vertical-hierarchical modus of power-maintenance"; master/the knower on the top, pupil/student/disciple on the bottom etc...the symbolic hierarchy positioning decides how much 'power' you will have, and this 'power' can be misused...all the 'pathologies'are born out of this symbolic net and not being able to withstand the purity and absoluteness of the symbolic role...

    conclusion: what remains perfect-in-itself is of course "the law"/the Symbolic, set of rules, of what behaviour and responsibility certain role has,

    and while I say "role", though it sounds as if you can detach yourself from the role and act as if "the role is something that is just superficially necessary" and does not reveal "my true nature that is behind this role", my opinion is that this is another "fantasm of the real-self", hiding there somewhere behind all this appearance of the role and would say: that this is all you got, you are what you are only through the role

    and the attitude of the type: "Ah it's just the role, it's not true, I'll just play the role but my real-inner-self is something else, something no role can fathom and nobody can understand", this is just another non-authentic attitude that detaches itself from the role and openly speaks about it, as something that is superbly great and pointing to this inner-privileged-point of self-refference that evades all possible definition of the persona, into the nameless and formless empty floating 'point' of non-reference, except refering to-its-own-abstract-self (its own inner unfathomable Plaisir). - But I guess this is called the "divine dichotomy", intricately bordering with some special form of well cultivated schizophrenia---
  • PallasAthene June 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @batawe:

    Sexuality at first is a biological programming to ensure the continuance of a race. Animals don’t think about to whom they are copulating. But some of them have to win a fight before having the right to proliferate themselves. And they are nearly ever focused on their race. That seems to be the odd theory of Darwin to ensure that only the powerful genetic codes will be passed on.

    Ok, now we take a look at the human beeing with an increased consciouness of theirselves, in ability to reflect. Our base programm is similar to the animal programm. Nor more no less.. Our possiblity to reflect and to resume makes us open up for any narcisstic motivation. And we look like Narcissus to the surface of the water till we fall into, then having something like awakening. :p

    Japanese people call the orgasm the little death, because it may compare to the state of beeing after death. A special moment where we are out and beyond this life with his gravitational forces.

    The vertical-hierarchical modus selecting or accepting a partner belongs to the fact that females in nature wants their babies secured from enemies. Nowadays muscular strength has been replaced by money power or social power, but always in order to save the succession. A spiritual master must be the never ending solution for this programm. Safeness in a lineage.

    The spiritual world knows about the devine forces of life. There exist Zen monks they are used to get enlightenment during orgasm. A very joyous method.

    Here you can see that powerful and clever programm of saving life in nature:

    What is great and special? Nature or consciouness? Perhaps a natural consciouness, perhaps.
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @PallasAthene: interesting clip, I guess it's easier to survive in a group;)
  • mammoth June 2011
    Posts: 17
    hmmmm Batwe ,,,,,, I had to have a snack in between,,,,,,.
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
  • Thank_You June 2011
    Posts: 32
    Dear All
    I have to say this was all a great shock for me and spent many weeks hardly able to even move from the shock and grief.
    I formed my opinion from trusted known persons willing to speak to me.

    I thank them especially. While I am still processing all this I know I have been freed.

    Free to choose
    Free to go forward
    Free to let go of the inhuman work hours I have given at great expense of
    my health, my family and my life.

    I am Free , Free, Free, Thank You. Thank You. Thank You.

    I would like to thank this forum,it wasn't the source of my evaluation of what the truth is but it helped me enormously to process my grief and shock, I still am and lots more to go.

    With lots of love and thankfulness
  • VeritasVeritas June 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @Thank_You:
    Truth shall set you free.
    THANK YOU for your touching words.
  • friend June 2011
    Posts: 4
    Dear friends, I have a question for each of you/us:

    What suggestions would you make to the organisers of yidl societies, centers and ashrams around the world regarding future activities? What do you think are the best "next steps"?
    (but please don't be rude : )

    Thank you, with love,
  • Reply to @friend: Putting down the pictures of Mr XXX would help. It would serve as an acknowledgement that Mr XXX has been found out, and signal that change is underway.
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @friend: for a start, any open discussion would be good instead of suggestions to go on more or less as if nothing happened. organisers should survey what members think and want. they should have started forums like this where everyone can speak up and everyone can hear the other and have special general meetings.
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347
    I thought that something for start was expressed in the "Call to all officials of the organization" by the majority of people on this forum. You can find the link at the top of the page.
  • friend June 2011
    Posts: 4
    Reply to @Roman: oh yes Roman, sorry, thanks for the reminder : )

    Dear friends,

    After reading it again I can see that the "Call to all officials" is more about suggestions for the short term immediate next steps. As it was written a while ago and quite a lot has surfaced and taken place since then, especially in Australia, it would also be good to hear each person's opinion about the more long term future of yidl centers, ashrams, societies etc. as well as any other short term suggestions - what do you think?

    Thank you, with love
  • elisabeth June 2011
    Posts: 112
    Dear friends, I have a question for each of you/us:
    What do you think are the best "next steps"?
    Thank you, with love,

    From Elisabeth to Friend:
    Dear Friend, I think you are "stepping ahead" of yourself. Focus on your next step....not 20 steps ahead. Next step....top page....on this forum....letter to Yidl centers....report on your investigation on the allegations....Step 1. Do that. Then do step 2, and 3...
  • pavitra June 2011
    Posts: 270
    Dear friend and What next? - good question. I asked myself the same question some months ago. On the personal level, I see that the people that found the courage and the common sense to go out from the yidl cult are now amazingly creative, free and happy.
    The yidl organization must be cancelled; I don’t have any doubt here. I think that is time to really do something good for the society and donate all the properties to real charity organisations.
    The yoga technics are very nice and fashionable and I think that all yoga teachers can start to teach it as free lancers without selling anything but their own knowledge and experiences. The large majority of people practising yoga don’t care about the guru cult and lineage XXXXX anyway.
    People looking for spirituality can find it everywhere. You don’t need (and are not allowed) to sell it.
    It would be a great idea to establish also a charity organization to help the cult and abuses victims worldwide.
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347

    Elisabeth is right. You cannot push the carriage in front of the horses. Do real inquiry and report first. Unless you do that, there are no other steps, just status quo. I think that pavitra is right too, but as we can see from Australia, sometimes even simple majority of members won’t be able to deal with the situation the way they would like to. In that case you don’t look for the answers/opinions on the forum. Either leave the organization or listen to guruvakya and live happily ever after.
  • RatanPuri July 2011
    Posts: 42
    Some my thoughts towards organization and members.

    From the side of organization and members I see some kind of suprise and astonishement that people want to talk and have own view on things. Let me please address this attitude.

    There are always and there will be always tendency to undermine authorities, societies, public people, people in charge, charitable organizations.
    This is how world is functoning. Even in totalitarism leaders are undermined by the test of power, in theocracy leadears are undermined by the test of morality, in authoritarism authority is undermined.
    This tendency is something no one can get rid of even if dreams are different. Not to count with this - means to finish sooner or later with failure.
    And count with this means to manage risks of this tendency.

    How it is with family or friends. We know we need to be truthful, act according to our words, be reasonable or we will have no real friends nor authority in the eyes of our children or friends. Unless we use arguments of power - then it is valid argument till we have this power, and still actions come not because of real respect but because of overwhelming power.

    What is YIDL? It is a society, it is charitable organization - by this I mean charity plus organization. We know it is totally authoritarian organization. In each area word of an author of the system has priority over any other member, group or representative body. It mostly concerns even private lifes of members like with mine.

    How YIDL can avoid a failure as such? What it needs is simply full transparency, being open for dialogue. I see no transparency in any major action, I see on local and global level that dialogue is condemned and punished very often. Of course we need to stick to some moral rules and do not change them but answering a questions and making things transparent is not that. So probably it will collapse sooner or later and as not transparent organization will be regarded as a cult or someones business. Simple like this.

    But lets see it from inside as a believer. So let's come to a point that we have a Guru and we dont need transparency at all. Guru knows how to do it best. However in longer distance and in such a big organization it has no future because we are not on isolated island. THere will always come someone who will try to undermine it and without transparency organization is defenseless. Of course transparency can be against itself if there is something to hide.
    Anyhow lets assume we believe in embodied God. Then I should get at least a word of wisdom, from The Knower of past, present and future - a sentence which in its purity and truthfulness would lighten up all the darkness which dwells in hearts of bhaktas because of the doubts and inperfectness. I am longing for such an arrow which would strike my heart and destroy all evil. Like in bhajans.
    In return however in first long awaited sentence I got only a quote of Gandhiji which addresses all people who where serving selflessly author of the system many many years - that only joy that they get from life is humiliating others. Seeing in past years their dedication, hard work, open hearts I can't believe what I read. That is not an arrow I was wating.

    So no matter when I sit, view is similar. And I dont think any bad karma can fall on people who are searching for dialogue and speak up own mind in a kind way.
    And if anyone can help me change my view I would really appreciate.
  • someonefromhungary July 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @RatanPuri:
    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
    so please accept my apologies
    I don't want to change your view
    at all ;)
  • Shivashakti July 2011
    Posts: 75
    Reply to @RatanPuri:
    Thank you for your intelligent post.
  • falseswamijifalseswamiji July 2011
    Posts: 255
    thank you
  • batawebatawe July 2011
    Posts: 409
    How I Got into the “Hazards” of Meditation

    Many meditation teachings are not designed to help you thrive, just the opposite. They want to break you down, break your ego, and train you to be disgusted or detached from daily life, so that the desire builds in you to give yourself to a nunnery or a monastery. The sacred traditions are looking for new recruits. If this is your dharma, great. If not, then you are like a healthy person who thought they were taking vitamins, but the pills turned out to cause brain damage.

    There are thousands of different types of meditation, and many of them were designed to shape specific changes in your body, emotions, neural pathways, and belief systems. The medtation traditions are strongly influenced by India, so some were designed to help you adapt to the cold in the mountains, others to loneliness, some are to help you become aloof and detached so you don't need anyone, and are in fact incapable of forming close relationships. Some are to help you to adapt to a life of total poverty, others to make you a compliant and unquestioning obeyer-of-orders, some are to help you to lose interest in life so all you want to do is sit in a cave and slowly die. So it is really quite a task to find or create a meditation practice that is designed to be supportive of the life you want to live. If you don't do that, then you won't proceed on to the next obstacle.

    There is a weird set of problems here, having to do with the meditation traditions themselves, and what a good job they have done of preserving the teachings that were given in 100 BC, 500 BC, 100 AD, 1300 AD, and so on. Almost all teachings on meditation are slanted toward the needs of the monks who lived long, long ago in places far, far away.

    Furthermore, because the knowledge of how to meditate has been preserved by the sacred Hindu and Buddhist traditions of India, Tibet, China, and so on, they have framed the knowledge as part of religion. It's not a science in the Western sense, although it pretends to be. Western science is about questioning everything, and always searching for better formulations of principles. To religious thinkers, such questioning is iconoclasm, a breaking of idols, and as such is almost like murder. Ordinary mortals are not allowed to change a religion, or the meditation practices that go with a religion. From a religious outlook, it is forbidden, a great heresy, the deepest kind of treachery and betrayal to modify the teachings to suit the very different needs of all those low-lifes out there who have the bad karma to be born in the United States or Europe. People who are so degraded that they have not taken vows to abandon their families, to abandon working for money, and abandon their individuality. As a consequence, we have a huge literature on "meditation techniques to suit the needs of monks living in monasteries, if they are Hindu or Buddhist," but not much at all about how to meditate if you live in the modern West and have a family and job that you really don't want to abandon.

    To put things in perspective, many millions of people have meditated, over the past several thousand of years, and written about it extensively – there is a vast literature. If you look at this history as a vast trial run of a new drug, there are remarkably few negative side effects for such a powerful process.

    Meditation usually comes wrapped up in a religion and a set of superstitions from a traditional culture. So we can make a distinction between "the dangers of meditation itself" and the dangers of say, converting to Buddhism if you are a woman living in the midwest United States in 2006. There is not much going on in the world of meditation that is aimed at how people really live now. There are thousands of varieties of Buddhism-flavored meditation, Hindu-flavored meditation, and so on. So we have to distinguish the dangers of meditation itself, even if a woman could find a woman-friendly form to practice, from all the extra cultural baggage meditation tends to come with.

    The Dangers of Meditation Itself

    The challenge of finding the right kind of meditation.
    The challenge of learning to face every thought and emotion.
    Dangers of doing the wrong type of meditation for your body and personality.
    Dangers of over-meditating.
    Predictable crises in the life of a meditator.
    Dangers of abandoning meditation because you are in a crisis.
    Dangers of opening the chakras.
    Enchantments and beguilements from opening the senses.
    Dangers of stress release.

    The Dangers of Yoga

    Yoga injuries to knees, back, feet, shoulders.
    Yoga diets that weaken your health.
    Yoga breath techniques with unexpected side-effects.
    Yoga attitudes that resemble an eating disorder.

    The Dangers of Religion

    Orthodoxy. Fanaticism.
    Passivity and the idea of karma.
    Dangers of making meditation a work against nature.
    Dangers of being a recent convert. vs. second or more generation.
    Dangers of the Guru system with its master/slave dynamic.
    Dangers of practicing repression of sexual desire.
    Dangers of detachment, alienation, dissociation.
    Dangers of developing a nauseous attitude toward money.
    Dangers of New Age thinking.

    How to Deny Everything

    The meditation traditions are OLD – like thousands of years old. You can't study meditation for long without being exposed to the way cultures were organized way back when. And thousands of years ago, in the ant-like organization of the Feudal system, everyone was specialized: there were farmer ants, warrior ants, breeder ants, and priest ants. Meditation was conceived of something that only specialized meditation-ants do. In the Feudal system, the deal was: "OK, if you promise to give up sex, and give up owning property, we will let you just sit in your room or cave and meditate, and we will bring you food and honor you, but otherwise leave you alone."

    So back then, the fundamental stance of meditation was that you start out by denying everything. You deny the world, you turn your back on everything and every obligation. You deny your family. You abandon your family if you have one, like Buddha did. You deny your desire for sex. You deny your desire to have a home. You deny your desire for innovation or creativity, and take an oath to just accept things as they are. You deny your desire to be an individual,
    and surrender your will to whover is your superior in the religious order you have committed to.

    overall comment: many spiritual systems are 'arhaic' and totally unadapted and oldschool and naive for the interests and purposes of life here in the 'west' or modern society (which is so criticized but at the same time the people who criticize it, take the benefits and become gods in their village, like gasterbeiter's); the 'east' will solve all the ailments and reduce the stress and bring enlightenment...great...at the same time their own attitude is very ambiguous to the 'modern societies ways' and can be cynical about it while smiling at your face, with no problem to take your money away and mock about the western narrowness and non-spirituality and supposed exclusive materialism; well, Franz Kafka or Soren Kierkegaard or Giordano Bruno etc., they are not rishis, just crazy westerners devoid of spirituality;), and certainly they are not avatars either...
  • batawebatawe July 2011
    Posts: 409
    When denial works, you get these brilliant, world-class blossoms of spiritual genius who seem to hold the world in the palm of their hand. Vyasa, Shukadeva, Gaudapada, Govinda, Shankara. Buddha, Padmasambhava. These are the people everyone reads about, and throughout history, it looks like more than 99% of all meditation teachers have been males on the path of denial. They took some sort of vow of renunciation, poverty, celibacy, and obedience. And they created the language and the images we use to think about meditation.

    Also, it is forbidden to ever question anything they said, because it is holy, and they are better than you can ever hope to be. This is why meditation teaching remains stuck in the past – they are determined to preserve their traditions, that's their job. And tradition means no innovation. None. You keep saying the same chant, wearing the same robes, and reading the same books.
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In this Discussion

Devotees' testimonies:

Devotee #1


Devotee #2


Devotee #3


Devotee #4 - Contact: valika.balazova@centrum.cz


Devotee #5 - Contact: synapseproblem@yahoo.de


Devotee #6


Devotee #7