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Re-evaluation of the situation or "where do I stand?"
  • PallasAthene May 2011
    Posts: 246
    Searching for answers I found the following pages. Perhaps for someone it may be also a place to find some fruits. Therefor :

    When Gods decay:

    http://andrea65.tripod.com/nrtit2.html

    Specially for batawe :) :) :) it may be very interesting - Chapter III - Your God is Dead But Mine Still Lives: A Nietzschian Analysis on the Rise and Fall of New Religions:

    http://andrea65.tripod.com/nr3.html

    This could be an additional aspect to examine brainwashing - Chapter IV - Memetic Theory and New Religions: A Blackmorian View of How Cults Succeed:

    http://andrea65.tripod.com/nr4.html


    More from the Gnostic Golfers you can find here:
    http://andrea65.tripod.com/

    I did't know the Gnostic Golfers till today. :) The name is cool...

  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Very nice find mr/s. PallasAthene!;)
    I'll check it, it looks very nice;)...and the first chapter that I clicked was the "Your God is Dead But Mine Still Lives: A Nietzschian...", before I even read the message;))...I'll make more comments after I read it all...Viva PallasAthene!!!;)))
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @batawe: could your try to make your comment as simplistic as possible then, to make it more accessible for the non-philosophy experts like me? I mostly don't read them because they are just too complicated for me :):):)
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @truthseeker: ;)), ok, I'll do my best!, I'll use alinéas and will 'zip' it in form of japanese koans;)))), np, I'll prove I can write in a simple way;))
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Anybody wants to make a bet? I am betting $20 he won't be able to do it :):):)
    (If I win: easy $20, if I loose: the best spent $20 ever in my life:)
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @Roman:
    good one
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @Roman: I'll take the bet :) :) :)
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @Roman: haha, can I make a bet also?;)))
  • PallasAthene May 2011
    Posts: 246
    In this Loka mobbing is prohibited. :) :) :)
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @PallasAthene: you mean gambling is prohibited here? :):)
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    yeah, let's not bet money... roman, if you lose, you will have to carefully read and reflect on everything what batawe has written so far, and provide convincing evidence of that... ;) what do you say?
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    this is cruel. You know that Roman has two jobs. When he could possibly do it?
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @pavitra: yeah, that's true... but I didn't specify a deadline for him... and also, he can simply say no :)
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    @batawe:
    sure brother, that's called hyperbolic starting conditions :):):)

    @someonefromhungary and the rest:
    ok, I was thinking that if I win, I would give my money to the new (not yet) established foundation to help members of the Empire trapped in it due to their existential conditions to be able to get out or stay based on their free will, not fears and oppression. But maybe making Vegas out of this thread is not such a good idea and therefore: I am taking my bet off the table. I actually do read most of my friend batawe’s posts and most of the time I agree with his analysis. Just sometimes my head goes into vertigo and I move onto something different like moppets throwing mud. But otherwise I really do appreciate his perspective and I got feedback from some people that they like (most of) his commentaries. So I did not mean anything disrespectful, just to little bit lighten up sometimes heavy things which we are dealing here with. And under no circumstances I will reflect on everything our dear batawe has said so far. That would be against the 8th Amendment of the US Constitution, which is against “Cruel and Unusual Punishment”. And you all know that I really value the US Constitution :)
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @Roman: :) :) :)
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @Roman: haha, I enjoyed this post;)...nicely put Roman; I must also thank all the people who bear with my hyperbolic extra-heavy hammering;))), but I am not cruel, rather unusual, but that is just the nature of the thing from my hyperbolian perspective;))
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @batawe: pardon, hyperbatawian perspective;)..(sounds also like a good new brand of water: EVIAN vs. HYPERBATAWIAN;)))...but I am not NAIVE and making the EVIAN out of it, I will sell it as "BATAWE trademark", without inversion-functions and subliminal messages - I may sound 'complex' but at least I am not selling you NAIVE 'water';)))
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    You are fine, brother :):):)
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    ;))
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    I would really like to buy a couple of gallons of your water Batawe and it may be a good idea for our vampires against robots souvenir shop when we will build our Fighting for the Truth Foundation
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    from certain correspondence, by Batawe:
    ...I see only benefit in it and things must come up and it's good to re-define certain things and in a way 'die' to things which served the purpose at the time and than move on and be open for something new, otherwise, nothing 'new' is born, only conformistic view of known things and fear of loosing the notoriously found 'truth'....I just read in one book, and this man quoted some Slovenian philosopher, saying, that in those years when he was a teenager and he read his book "Truth about the truth", one line caught his attention and it goes like this: "Truth about Truth is that there is no Truth about Truth and that is why nobody has any 'control'/possession of it"_____and that gives you certain material to ponder upon...conclusion is simple: whoever speaks that he 'possesses Truth is probably selling you different package of some sort of Ideology/doctrine/dogma"___and where there is certain dogma and privileged knowers of truth and like all Ideologies, you add a Central Figure, you get all the possibility for manifestation of 'fashistic' relations......all religious structures revolve around, more or less central figure/Redeemer/Saviour etc., but what you get from it? Dogmatic thinking and belief...not that I am negating the human urge to find the deeper meaning (whatever that means), but I am affriming this desire of human beings to try to know, to try to find the reasons of what is human life etc...but it becomes dangerous when somebody or someone says: "I know it"...and if you look closely, all this religious structures tries to present itself as the sole 'possessor' of the Truth...do we really search the Truth? or do we need a new expanded family of followers and temporary assurance that "now we are being saved"......
    .....and if we look closely, this search for Truth, as much as it is put, or it appears like that, as the 'Thing' which goes beyond every limitation, even this human body, 'knowing' it, means realizing some sort of Transendental truth which is somehow 'non-human'/beyond societies influence/some kind of radical Perception, no Sense can 'elaborate' on it/Timeless experience etc...but at the same time this same Truth is presented, propagated, envisioned, 'sold', preached, within concrete cultural and social environment, symbolic embeddedness and language structure; it is purely a cultural product which will supposedly have/has/will have "timeless effects"...Realization of God/truth or whatever, supposedly happens in a totaly INDIVIDUAL way, or it happens to a particular Individual (and all beleivers beleive that they - their particular person will be saved and glorified; it looks as some sort of divine sel-f-ishness), but at the same time, this individuality is questionable...par example: if a patient comes to analysis to solve some symptoms etc..it isn't so simple as to treat this particular symptom isolated from patient's whole life and his/her history, his cultural background, education, just the whole package in relation to the society as such, which means, that symptoms are not only symptoms of a specific individual as individualistic phenomenon per se, but it is a symptom that is a cultural symptom, this particular symptom of an individual has roots in the culture itself and when dealing with the individual, you have in front of yourself 'culture in a mini-pack', which definitely has its own specific imprint on the person and his life-condition, social role etc...my point is: religious or spiritual groups or Redeeming Agendas with The Saviour on the top, appears as a ('divine') socio-paternal-cultural set, through which the subjects can/or will free themselves; by participating in the group Idea and knowing the means of "how to save yourself" (while believing or surrendering to the Capo di Banda/The Leader of the Gang;), you can than 'free' yourself from yourself and leap into the Beyond, becoming a Superman yourself, which means, that to leap into the Beyond (beyond body, time, space and matter...), your support, your jumping board will be the same 'society of religious members', rooted in cultural mind-body-set, transfering the love onto the Saviour and by diverting and investing all your life-mind-energy onto the chosen Object of Love - object which becomes the embodiment of all the social roles transposed onto the "IL Signore Jesu Cristo" or someone similar, all the love converges onto him, maternal, paternal etc...II Signore becomes, incorporates in himself, all the social roles of Father, Mother, Friend, Brother, Sister, Son, Daughter (you can choose your prefered relation in what way you will love your Unknown X, embodied in the Grande Maestro etc.) - which will than catapult you out of your terrestrial 'spiritual family' to the real Home of your Father in Heaven...what is this Realization? If we read what Realization entails, in the spirit of transcending the mind and matter and Creation as such (not just transcending your banal and trivial limits of your rotten life; you will transcend Time and Space and will unite with god, beyond all knowable things), than we can come to the conclusion that Realization is something which will cut and end all mortal ties and all humanness, thus becoming the Divine Automaton (but still full of Bliss and Peace and rest of the Divine Atrributes or Essence of being and that stuff), but still after you Realize yourself, you will remain here amongst the people, aloof, acting as if you are one among the people but at the same time knowing your Divine Automaton-True Self, you will know you are far beyond time and space but still will act as if you are ordinary like everybody else, eating and shitting etc...not only that, you will have to follow certain social norms and rules nonetheless, even thou nobody will know that you are already Truth-possessed and worthy of Love by your fellow human-creatures who still walk blindly around and don't see anything in the darkness, except their own fantasy fabrications, false projections of the mind etc..to conclude: Realization is going 'counter-productive' to all of the realtions in time and space, even the realations of maestro and discepolo must fall away..
    ..how can you realize your own Self within this relation, all relations are hindrance to the Realization and it is a wonder, how come that something which in some sense sounds 'suicidal' like Samadhi/cessation of all mental fluctuations etc., which was the object of some few numbered yogis in the forest from the past (finding the methods how to kill yourself consciously), can become something that is socially affirming and a benefit to the society, and society meaning the collective of people who structure their lives within certain mind-body-socio-relations...and all this 'consciouss killing process' and enlightenment will happen within certain spiritual.family-organised community, a particular and empirical situation of life with social roles and than, one, or two, maybe three among the hundred or thousands, will effectively leap into the Beyond, something like "struck by a Lightning" and than all others will get a push to do it themselves,,,let's leap to the Beyond...let's save ourselves from this weird Life-space and reserve our place in heaven next to our Father Éternel........
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @batawe: ty for your contribution. But if you used alineas it would be much easier to read.
  • PallasAthene June 2011
    Posts: 246
    Dear Batawe, I hope, it is ok for you when i added the alineas. Sometimes it can change the flow. :)

    ------

    from certain correspondence, by Batawe:

    ...I see only benefit in it and things must come up and it's good to re-define certain things and in a way 'die' to things which served the purpose at the time and than move on and be open for something new, otherwise, nothing 'new' is born, only conformistic view of known things and fear of loosing the notoriously found 'truth'....

    I just read in one book, and this man quoted some Slovenian philosopher, saying, that in those years when he was a teenager and he read his book "Truth about the truth", one line caught his attention and it goes like this: "Truth about Truth is that there is no Truth about Truth and that is why nobody has any 'control'/possession of it"_____and that gives you certain material to ponder upon...

    conclusion is simple: whoever speaks that he 'possesses Truth is probably selling you different package of some sort of Ideology/doctrine/dogma"___and where there is certain dogma and privileged knowers of truth and like all Ideologies, you add a Central Figure, you get all the possibility for manifestation of 'fashistic' relations......all religious structures revolve around, more or less central figure/Redeemer/Saviour etc., but what you get from it?

    Dogmatic thinking and belief...not that I am negating the human urge to find the deeper meaning (whatever that means), but I am affriming this desire of human beings to try to know, to try to find the reasons of what is human life etc...but it becomes dangerous when somebody or someone says: "I know it"...and if you look closely, all this religious structures tries to present itself as the sole 'possessor' of the Truth...do we really search the Truth? or do we need a new expanded family of followers and temporary assurance that "now we are being saved"......

    .....and if we look closely, this search for Truth, as much as it is put, or it appears like that, as the 'Thing' which goes beyond every limitation, even this human body, 'knowing' it, means realizing some sort of Transendental truth which is somehow 'non-human'/beyond societies influence/some kind of radical Perception, no Sense can 'elaborate' on it/Timeless experience etc...

    but at the same time this same Truth is presented, propagated, envisioned, 'sold', preached, within concrete cultural and social environment, symbolic embeddedness and language structure; it is purely a cultural product which will supposedly have/has/will have "timeless effects"...Realization of God/truth or whatever, supposedly happens in a totaly INDIVIDUAL way, or it happens to a particular Individual (and all beleivers beleive that they - their particular person will be saved and glorified; it looks as some sort of divine sel-f-ishness), but at the same time, this individuality is questionable..

    par example: if a patient comes to analysis to solve some symptoms etc..it isn't so simple as to treat this particular symptom isolated from patient's whole life and his/her history, his cultural background, education, just the whole package in relation to the society as such, which means, that symptoms are not only symptoms of a specific individual as individualistic phenomenon per se, but it is a symptom that is a cultural symptom,

    this particular symptom of an individual has roots in the culture itself and when dealing with the individual, you have in front of yourself 'culture in a mini-pack', which definitely has its own specific imprint on the person and his life-condition, social role etc...my point is: religious or spiritual groups or Redeeming Agendas with The Saviour on the top, appears as a ('divine') socio-paternal-cultural set, through which the subjects can/or will free themselves; by participating in the group Idea and knowing the means of "how to save yourself" (while believing or surrendering to the Capo di Banda/The Leader of the Gang;),

    you can than 'free' yourself from yourself and leap into the Beyond, becoming a Superman yourself, which means, that to leap into the Beyond (beyond body, time, space and matter...), your support, your jumping board will be the same 'society of religious members', rooted in cultural mind-body-set, transfering the love onto the Saviour and by diverting and investing all your life-mind-energy onto the chosen Object of Love

    object which becomes the embodiment of all the social roles transposed onto the "IL Signore Jesu Cristo" or someone similar, all the love converges onto him, maternal, paternal etc...II Signore becomes, incorporates in himself, all the social roles of Father, Mother, Friend, Brother, Sister, Son, Daughter (you can choose your prefered relation in what way you will love your Unknown X, embodied in the Grande Maestro etc.) - which will than catapult you out of your terrestrial 'spiritual family' to the real Home of your Father in Heaven...

    ‘- what is this Realization? If we read what Realization entails, in the spirit of transcending the mind and matter and Creation as such (not just transcending your banal and trivial limits of your rotten life; you will transcend Time and Space and will unite with god, beyond all knowable things), than we can come to the conclusion that Realization is something which will cut and end all mortal ties and all humanness, thus becoming the Divine Automaton (but still full of Bliss and Peace and rest of the Divine Atrributes or Essence of being and that stuff), but still after you Realize yourself, you will remain here amongst the people, aloof, acting as if you are one among the people but at the same time knowing your Divine Automaton-True Self, you will know you are far beyond time and space but still will act as if you are ordinary like everybody else, eating and shitting etc...

    not only that, you will have to follow certain social norms and rules nonetheless, even thou nobody will know that you are already Truth-possessed and worthy of Love by your fellow human-creatures who still walk blindly around and don't see anything in the darkness, except their own fantasy fabrications, false projections of the mind etc..to conclude: Realization is going 'counter-productive' to all of the realtions in time and space, even the realations of maestro and discepolo must fall away..

    ..how can you realize your own Self within this relation, all relations are hindrance to the Realization and it is a wonder, how come that something which in some sense sounds 'suicidal' like Samadhi/cessation of all mental fluctuations etc., which was the object of some few numbered yogis in the forest from the past (finding the methods how to kill yourself consciously), can become something that is socially affirming and a benefit to the society, and society meaning the collective of people who structure their lives within certain mind-body-socio-relations.

    ..and all this 'consciouss killing process' and enlightenment will happen within certain spiritual.family-organised community, a particular and empirical situation of life with social roles and than, one, or two, maybe three among the hundred or thousands, will effectively leap into the Beyond, something like "struck by a Lightning" and than all others will get a push to do it themselves,,,let's leap to the Beyond...let's save ourselves from this weird Life-space and reserve our place in heaven next to our Father Éternel........
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @PallasAthene: great improvement, thanks! :-)
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    haha;)..yes, I agree;)..next time i'll stick to alineas; I'll do it afterwards;), thx
  • pavitra June 2011
    Posts: 270
    the Slovenian philosopher is Slavoj Zizek
    I read that the Samadhi as the highest achievement of the yoga from the historical point of view appeared in the Upanishads and it was quite a big evolution from the "classical" sacrifice process perpetuated in all religious groups before. Positive in the way that saved many goats but really not a great help for the sheeps...
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    yes..slovenian philosopher is slavoj žižek, but in this case it was another one;)
    in samadhi whole world is fundamentally suspended, as it seems; it's a subjective process, the World still remains there, Samadhi doesn't solve the wider scope of Life and its multiplexity...it's good for individual cessation, abolishment, annulment...and it doesn't necessarily mean that Samadhi will make you more ethical or more broader in perspective etc...it is the abolishment of all sorts of perspective, probably God-perspective also;)))...

    Samadhi dissolves the Subject and with it the Object becomes dissolved, but still only subjects-object or object-for-the subject in his consciousness; outer object as such, materiality of things are still there,,,Samadhi unifies those three elements of subject who knows, object that is known and knowledge itself,,,of course,,as all three are part of the same self-consciousness, you were all the time the subject, the object and mediation between them, but only in your own consciusness,

    Samadhi pertains to the subjective consciousness, that's all, only one Cell of the greater Cosmological 'Body' can escape and leap into the Beyond;)...the huge materiality of Universe remains, together with our planet and material life; Samadhi sounds nice for final Escape out of the Game...it definitely isn't something life-affirming...so it does not condone any relations,,so if you have a boyfriend or a girlfriend,,tell them in advance if you mean to reach it;)))
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @batawe: often you write so long and especially in english it is hard to read it, but this comment is very sententious, my opinion on the topic of samadhi is similar. When you reach it-it doesnot mean that you are out of possibility to make mistakes or fall down into deepest ignorance-just the probability is smaller. Therefore i consider (not only) indian culture with living gods that cannot do wrong things as a bit hazardous.....
    Make it clear-i think that it is usefull to have living master, respect him, but it is usefull to be aware of the possibility of his fall.
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @mangal: :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @batawe: :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Devotee #4 - Contact: valika.balazova@centrum.cz

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