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Destroying something good?
  • Tony May 2011
    Posts: 172
    I'd like to address one strong argument that appeared here in several posts. I will paraphrase it as follows:

    "Why do you want to destroy all the good work swAmi has done? You may be disgruntled, fine, leave, but leave us alone. Why do you have this need to demolish everything good that has been built over time? Spiritual communities are few and precious. Why can't you respect them?"

    First, there is no way this forum can destroy anything. Get real. If you are a firmly rooted disciple, this cannot possibly shake you, in fact you are not even reading this.

    We are not actively out there destroying buildings, holding demonstrations outside, vandalizing meditation halls etc. This forum just sits here. It requires you to actively navigate with your browser here and read the material. Nobody is forcing you to read this. We did not drag you in here against your will. If this forum offends you, just leave (although my next paragraphs are kind of important, so you might as well finish reading this post).

    The one group that may possibly be influenced by this forum are people who are fundamentally curious. People who used to inquire, doubt and question, but who had suppressed all these traits of intelligence because of the toxic brainwashing ideology of the organization. I have seen, over the years, that people usually join when they are at their most vulnerable point in life: in the middle of a personal crisis, loss of a family member, serious illness, financial difficulties, etc. These may be very inquisitive, independent minds who were simply trapped at their weak moment. I consider myself one of them, and I feel strong kinship to others in that category.

    What I find most objectionable and deplorable about the entire movement is that it preys on the weak and on the innocent. It exploits people's desire to be good. It takes advantage of those who are seekers, who wish to grow, to find true knowledge, to better themselves. These are all very very good people, and people who want to do good things. To me, perverting these highest of human aspirations and making them work for one's own selfish self-aggrandization is the most despicable form of human conduct. If you want to take advantage of someone, be fair and pick someone your size. Do not prey on the weak and the innocent. (A nice example of a highly moral business is Rolex: basically you exploit rich idiots, zero harm done.)

    And this is the crux of the problem: even though the organization brings together a lot of good people, the organization in itself is evil. The concept of karma yoga, work without attachment to any reward may sounds spiritual, but all it is, is slavery. The concept of absolute, unquestioning obedience to the guru is dehumanizing and humiliating, has absolutely no place in the modern, post-French revolution world. Your self-respect, your pride, your ego is condemned as something to be ashamed of, something to get rid of. Manipulations by exploiting the fear of the unknown, invoking the imaginary realm and superstition are profoundly dishonest. What to say about the racism, sexism, and religious intolerance, inherrent in the movement? Or of financial exploitation of the peoples of the former Eastern Europe, milking the starving cows, sucking the blood of the peoples who had been conveniently pre-rendered by their communist governments? These supposedly "spiritual" teachings are leading people, again good people, people who want to do good, into a complete, slavish, pathological dependency on the megalomaniacal guru, lead to an utter loss of critical thinking, suppression of doubts; entire lives are destroyed.

    That's why.
  • John_Sceptic May 2011
    Posts: 30
    Whilst I completely agree with everything you have said, Tony, my aim here is still to get back to the basics of the sexual abuse and how to find out if the girls are telling the truth. As I said before, I would not publish my complaint against someone, and not put my name to it. On the other hand, I don't know their circumstances and how many crazy people might want to harm then.

    To me the comment "destroying something good" is just so silly, it's beyond belief. It's so wrong on so many levels! If bad stuff happens, someone has to point the finger, and someone has to do something to change it. Hey, maybe that's why the saying: "Killing the messenger" came into being? If the messenger brings bad news, we'd rather kill/silence him, than look at the message. Ignorance is bliss!

    On the other hand, if all 6 girls are lying, it looks a bit different. If they are lying, and the swAmi is innocent, that would be a great tragedy.
  • Tony May 2011
    Posts: 172
    Reply to @John_Sceptic: Supposing that the allegations are true, as traumatic and tragic as they are, they would be neither the only wrong thing with the organization let alone the worst thing about it.

    From what I read in the stories of disillusionment here, I recognize the same pattern over and over. The specifics differ, but the essence of abuse of human dignity is a common thread. I see the sex abuse allegations as the catalyst, the valve that opened the torrent of other, unrelated, bad experiences and memories, revealing the rotten core. Even if the sex abuse claims, hypothetically, turn out to be complete fabrications, our disgust with the organization is not going to disappear. We are driven by much broader issues.

    Just curious, which part bothers you and are looking for a proof of:

    1) That swAmi has had consensual sex with women and pretended that he is celibate? or
    2) That he, on some occasions, force-manipulated such consensus?

    While certainly unproven, both statements are completely consistent with the other stories that many of us are sharing, and with my own direct experience of what it is like to be a man ;-).

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim at hand is completely ordinary, to the point of being vacuous.

    If the man accused were a truck driver would anyone doubt the women?
  • karavan May 2011
    Posts: 135
    Reply to @John_Sceptic:
    First: you are spreading the same thematic to all forums and this make it really difficult to follow and to answer the same thing less than 4 times.

    No court never decide from yes or not from one or the other side but from many facts that build up the story. As the sex is always done in dark behind the walls, no camera, no webcam declaration will not bring any more belive to those that doesnt want to believe. There are all the small parts that brings the main picture togther, and here we have a lot of facts that fit together.

    Think of yourself being a begginer, looking for a yoga class: would you treat such reports impossible? Meeting his yoga teachers that quit in silence many years ago and their arguments? Knbowing that this guru supports his swamis dealing with pedofilic pornografies on their computers, mingling with their students?
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    I guess, like Tony said, it's also the broader issues, coupled with particular problematics of the abuse; broader issues implicate wider and critical (as analytic) points of understanding, and I think that our concern about these things is also referring to the whole spiritual structure and its mechanisms; I am not saying there is no good in all these things, yoga etc., as long as it is approached in a sane way, but things become blurred in their application and later self-identification as of 'higher spiritual beings' etc. There is certain illusion at work in all spiritual systems, especially when they promise things which in reality don't hold any firm ground, and to become spiritual, certainly doesn't mean to wear "tilak" from now on and "look as a spiritual person"; (the spoken) universality of spirituality and its message, in many cases, coincides with certain fetishistic cultural elements and here the 'truth' is mis-placed and you fall on the image...we must dismantle certain things, and see if there is anything substantial left there or not.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    FYI: I have heard that swAmi's European tour, which was planned for June, has been cancelled. The reason: he wants to take care of his sick mother.
    His next planned visit to Europe, according to the old schedule (which was removed from the yidl website in March), is from August till October.
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @truthseeker: yes, the two-week program (+gurupurnima weekend) in hungary in june is completely cancelled and reimbursement has started. a few days ago, the rumour only was that swAmi might not come to vep, but then official news came saying that the entire program is cancelled.
    (according to the official yidl homepage, his mother is in intensive care unit.)
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    I'm sorry for his mother but I really hope that when he will come the next time to Europe he will go directly in jail
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @pavitra:
    dear pavitra,
    I understand that you're feeling that way... but there's no way he could go directly to jail... it requires a legal procedure before that under any circumstances... even if you're completely convinced that he is not innocent, the general society (or more specifically, one or more courts) also has to convince itself and has to decide if he can be sentenced to jail or anything according to its laws in force...
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    yes I know, it would be already a great achievement to get an official warning that YIDL may be a cult organisation and that his founder allegedly sexually abused some young female disciples
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    got the news that swAmi's mother underwent urgent surgery today.
    whatever this forum is about... I wish her good health and I am sorry that her illness and these things coincide because it probably does not help her.
    I have never met her, I don't know her.
    but for gratitude of all of the positive things I experienced from the part of her son, I will not share any of my unfortunate negative vrittis about him on this forum for the next 72 hours. (it will do good to me too.)
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Thank you for telling us. I think it is a good idea for people who think like that to take a break and reflect on things within themselves. Have your conscious guide you. I would just like to stress that some of the women we have been talking about are mothers too. We should revere all mothers. All people in distress. I wish swAmi’s mother recovery and good health. I wish we wouldn’t have to be here discussing all this. But what’s the alternative?
  • mammoth May 2011
    Posts: 17
    To Tony for the May 19 reply
    Thank you this is a thoughtful reply
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Destroying something good?

    I strongly doubt that any of the victims aim is to literally destroy ÝIDL.
    What should be acknowledged, is the fact, that unjustness has been done to them.
    It should be admitted by the individual, who is responsible for the abuse.
    The consequences of this would be loss or weakening of his position.

    Exactly this position is the basis of the ugly things that have happened. It should
    not be possible to take advantage of this position that lead to the abuse anymore.

    The organzation itself has brought up many beneficial things that stand beyond
    the deeds of the founder. This good shall not be destroyed, but the organization
    itself has to go through a transformation process. The first step would be to face
    the truth and to act accordingly.

    Can the organization keep their figurehead up like it has been done in the past?
    Seriousliy, no. Also the structure has to undergo some major modification. This
    patriarchal, pyramid like, layer structure has to vanish. It has to be transformed
    into a democratic and transparent community. Only a transformation towards transparency
    and truth will ensure their further existence on the long run. Is there anyone inside
    ÝIDL with such strenth and courage to do so?

    So I ask you, Mr. swAmi,
    what is more important to you, your position on
    top of the pyramid, that you are so eagerly trying to cling on to, or the plain truth?

    Is a life in (and for) truth not the real meaning of YOGA? Or has vanity blurred your
    perception of right and wrong?
    Show your bhaktas by leading example, how to cope with own mistakes, therefore you will earn
    respect and maybe even forgiveness.
    Any other attempt to manipulate by fear and guilt are just indicatiors of where you
    really stand at the moment.

    I wish you a real moment of clarity.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Veritas: good statement. I hope there is a possibility to amend the wrongs that have been done and to change the hierarchical organisation. That way swAmi could improve his character and YIDL could transform itself into something better. But it's not easy, if what Tony in his May 20 post said is right, that YIDL in itself is evil.
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    So I am asking, what does ÝIDL consist of?
    It would be nothing without the many volunteers involved, most of them real decent people. The majority of them have no clou, about what is going on behind closed curtains.
    And many are scared, that the allegations might have a glimpse of truth to it. I would not dare to call these people evil or rotten.

    On the other hand, the behaviour of swAmi appears to be pretty shabby.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Veritas: of course, most people in YIDL are real decent people. But like Tony said, "even though the organization brings together a lot of good people, the organization in itself is evil" and "it preys on the weak and on the innocent. It exploits people's desire to be good." If he's right, than that's exactly the problem.
    The people who are part of YIDL but not in the core don't notice the evil things that are going on. For them it's the hardest to believe the allegations. When you're in the core or very much in the periphery it may be easier, the first know from their own experience that not all is that it seems, the latter have enough distance to ask critical questions.
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    I agree with one important change of the sentence:

    "even though the organization brings together a lot of good people, the STRUCTURE of the organization in itself LEAD TO evil"
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Veritas: I agree with you, but I want to add 'and the core of the organisation is evil in its behavior'. Behavior can be changed.
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    Yes, that would be right, if all inside the core would have knowledge about the shady things inside. But they don't.

    And yes, my friend, behaviour can - and must be changed.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Veritas: with the core I mean first of all swAmi, of course. About others in the core it may be harder to judge, they may be brainwashed.

    But an important question I think is, did swAmi start YIDL with good or bad intentions. If his intentions were good in the beginning, it's the structure that corrupted him and then things can be changed, but if his intentions have always been evil (attaining power, fame, wealth and sex through manipulation) I don't think a lot can be changed, unless they kick him out of YIDL besides changing the structure.
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    Spot on image
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    admin, plz delete mishap
  • mangal May 2011
    Posts: 489
    A lot of good work was done during years by yidl volunteers. But if i was one of them i have the right to ask, how was the huge amount of earned many used. The perfect example is jadan hospital. Typical example of exaggeration-if i like to help people i would built some normal building (cheapper) -not the palace. Why we had to built this enhanced crazy building if we dont have enough many to operate it....and who need this kind of palace-ill willagers, our ego? The main point there is, that if someone try to complain about it or ask why we need this-typical answer is-dont have negativ mind, try to be positive or swAmi knows....maybe upper sense....
    Therefore, i dont think that yidl is devil organisation, but it is organisation without inner critics and therefore organisation without repair mechanism, therefore mistakes has no chance to be repair....because we dont think negativ
  • joyriver May 2011
    Posts: 101
    I think swAmi had an intent of catching us pure souls in his web... so he could feed on our energy, devotion and love, exploiting our wish to be good, and thus through abuse and manipulation prevent most of the people involved from real spiritual developement.

    This are my thaughts today. I don't see the need in my life to have some authority rulling it any more. Here is the catch. Someone convinced us it time remote, that we need guidance, a teacher, a guru... Why? Why is not that inner feeling a good enaugh teacher? Why is it not enaugh to be aware and to live according to that inner feeling that tells you exactly right from wrong? Why should we listen to somebody without instead of listening and cherishing that one within?
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    Hi joyriver
    I think that it's good to listen to others and share our experiences if we can learn something out from it. It was our pure illusion or even stupidity to think and believe that someone else could take on himself the responsability of our growth and development. We were weak and needed something - someone to project our love and swAmi words and smiles were saying all the time "I love you even more". We have been just naive and quite irresponsible. I hope. Maybe I'm so well brainwashed but I can't believe that swAmi is only pure evil.
  • NoviSadCalling July 2011
    Posts: 175
    Reply to @pavitra:

    No, of course he is not pure evil. Put somewhere during the course of his work he "adjusted" his attitude towards world and people and started to treat them mainly as a way of fulfillment of his own desires. I can't tell if this was the case 20, 30, 40 years ago, and what were his real motives at that time, but looking over last 10 years, I have no doubt about what he has been doing over and over again. Listening to real-world stories (someone would call them "anegdotes") told by different people from different countries, I ask myself and other people, too: how could we been so blind?!
  • Ivan May 2011
    Posts: 161
    I also don't think he is pure evil. Just a man as we are- only he is caught in a net of power, lies and abuse out of which there is no exit. Except dealing with it honestly. It is extremely interesting how swAmi befriended Mahamadalesvar Svami Nityananda of the same Akhara (not the one famous for his home video), but brother of Gurumayi, whom Gurumayi had expelled from Siddha Yoga because he was sleeping with Muktananda’s female devotees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamandaleshwar_Nityananda
    Nityananda admitted his sins, but was later “re-sanyasicized” in a big yagya where he promised never to do it again… But swAmi is too deep in a gutter to admit. The best would be to stop his late night activities and work a little bit more on humanitarian efforts.
    Regarding humanitarian work it can also be seen as a way to proselytize, to multiply assets and harem. When I joined YIDL there wasn’t ANY humanitarian project on YIDL at all! It all started around 2000 and only the devotees had to be credited for that, they have done it all. Of course the amount of money swAmi had lost on wrong building decisions in Jadan is also crazy . These mistakes were explained that the building process is actually a kind of spiritual sadhana, which breaks the bonds of mind (indeed). (“we think we are building Jadan, but we are building ourselves…”) There is always another side of a coin as with everything in life.
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @Ivan: Masters of the Universe etc...:
  • SunYaC May 2011
    Posts: 41
    Yes, Pavitra, he's certainly not the pure evil. Being spiritually dull, as I was when I started with yoga, one can learn from him substantial things for starting one's own spiritual progress, like non-violence, vegetarianism, calming the mind, meditation, concentration, regular hatha-yoga sadhana, selfless service, karma-yoga, and so on... But actually all those things are rather material than spiritual. Following him one can surely realize a lot of things about this material body, it's subtle aspects and energies, even about the the consciousness and the soul residing in this body and the impersonal all-pervading energy of the Lord called Brahman. What the swAmi doesn't teach is that with this knowledge one's spiritual path doesn't end and that there are much more realizations beyond. The realization of Brahman and of the soul within is just very partial knowledge of the Absolute. And considering his grossly material attachment to women I seriously doubt the swAmi himself has this basic realization at all.

    Following him one can also get a lot of good karma, but good karma is still karma. And karma entangles the soul in material world. Until there is any karma, the soul must stay in the material world and take another birth in material body. When one has a lot of good karma, then his next life will be very nice, but one time the good karma will be exhausted and then problems will come again.. This is not the solution. Real spiritual advancement means to get rid of material karma completely, whether good or bad. To stop creating further karma. Only then one is free from the cycle of birth and death. The swAmi doesn't teach such thing, because he doesn't know it. His knowledge is incomplete and his presentation of Vedic philosophy is just adulterated and confused hodgepodge. And he himself is entangled in karma indeed. Welfare work, building hospitals, and so on. Presently we can see that also some very bad karma is chasing him. But regardless his plays with women behind the curtain one could still learn from him many good things. He is not pure evil - he's something like teacher in spiritual preparatory school. He even teaches a bit about bhakti-yoga in his own way, but here comes the substantial point: Genuine spiritual master teaches unconditional devotion, bhakti, to Supreme Lord. Not to himself.
  • July 2011
    Posts: 0
    (sorry, had to be deleted by editor due to spamming)
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