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sex abuse scandal, Part II
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Ivan: actually, someone who represents Absolute Truth shouldn't need any defense. It can't be destroyed, so why defend it, especially in such a cynical way, if it's above everything?

    Some devotees compare swAmi to Jesus and Jesus didn't defend himself, so why does swAmi? He labels the accusations against him as the destructive work of jealous devils. Would Jesus have done that? Jesus asked the Lord to forgive the ones who crucified him, because they didn't know what they were doing.

    What's keeping swAmi from making a similar statement, and what's keeping him from stopping his devotees defending him with cynical, non-loving words? We are waiting, swAmi.
  • pavitra June 2011
    Posts: 270
    I think that swAmi doesn't want them to come here and discuss with us on his behalf. Looking at the results we can also imagine why. I think that his instructions for the devotees are to stay away and prey. He needs to keep them busy and get them even more brainwashed because the number is decreasing and he has to squeeze them more and more. They will have for instance fewer seminars and longer ones (probably in India) where he can have a bigger control, get more money out of them and free workforce. He has probably some different instructions for his closer circle to find out the really "dangerous" people and do whatever needed in order to take away their credibility. At the end my point is that I really appreciate the devotees that are joining this forum because they show some kind of integrity and have the courage to disobey to their master. Well done. Stay with us. You are precious to us.
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    reply @lanterna @sunyac and in general:

    well, thanks lanterna for your nice post;), I am taking it in a normal batawian way and what is the nature of a batawian way, is going to remain a secret;), but I admit you got me on to a certain point and after proceeded reading it started to 'smell' strange;); one or two acts of praisal are fine, but than it 'showered' on us and I was still thinking in 1st person: "Am I really that great and smart and beautiful and blissful?";))), so I sensed this ironical meaning before I read other posts and that was also a moment of fun for me;)...thx for Lacan to you 2!;), you observed well indeed;), I'll take that as compliment of course, especially because I presumed you must/should/would/could be a woman (aka lanterna;) and even if you are not, by the Name you definitely are and we can call it "female jouissance";), and please, we want more: ENCORE!;)

    dear sunyac, I know I promised I will try to simplify things but the thing just goes "by itself", to whatever direction it is inclined to go;), I am not using it, I am used by it, IT, is writing "it";), I became a f..in "object" of "it"; sounds pretty 'sexual'; to say it in a vulgar way: "we are fu...d by words!" In Lacanian words: "The unconscious is structured like a language."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscious_mind
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Lacan


    ON LOVE:
    http://www.lacan.com/symptom/?page_id=263
  • And now for a change, something else:
    I am surprised that no mention was made on this board of the fact that XXXX has postponed his return to Europe, which would have been due end of May, indefinitely and that all summer seminars where cancelled. Perhaps people here have distanced themselves to such a degree that they don't receive the yoga news anymore, so let me be the one to break it to you. Well, really "news" it ain't, since it was announced already on May 20th I think in a skype session XXXX has held with a band of faithful in the Vienna ashram. The view I am inclined to take of this change of tack on the part of XXXX is display of the very human quality of shame. I find this sort of encouraging for those, including me, who hope for some kind of confession & apologies.
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @Ushmeypuri:
    I think people tune into this forum for "yoga news" these days :)
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @lanterna:

    In the "open letter" Roman said that after renouncing swamihood, he just cut off all the ties with YIDL and his yidl friends. For me, it was a tiny bit surprising that a person who has no more connections with such a nasty organization found out among first few about this huge scandal. And I was wondering how it is possible and I wondered about the motifs for the big action of an ex-swami…

    I’ve explained many times how I found out about this whole scandal. Very good friends of mine from past, whom I didn’t see for almost 10 years, called me and told me about it. They also told me that they left YIDL and some other things. Well, what did I do? I followed up. Unlike some other individuals who just make up their opinion on pure belief. I found out that people got used and misused and taken advantage of. Some of them I didn’t know, some I did. So the motive for the action of an ex-swami against a sex-swami was to break the silence. And we are speaking now, aren’t we?

    Especially when I read that Roman has a secret question for these women by which he can be absolutely sure that they are telling the truth.

    As I’ve mentioned before, my question to those first ones, could not tell anything about abuse. It could tell that they must have been really really close to swAmi in the specific area. Anybody who has seen swAmi naked knows what I am talking about. By now the question would not make any difference anyway because it is expected. I don’t ask it anymore. But at that time, nobody expected it. This is just one facet on the whole multidimensional image.

    … not to talk about the money…

    OK, let’s talk about money. The person who was in charge of money for Vienna ashram even before the Big Brotherhood Organization was created was doing every trick possible to conceal real financial activities. She/he told me personally that she/he was running two sets of books. One for the authorities and the second for the real time bookkeeping. I think that part was eventually solved by new Ashram directors pushing her/him out of the spotlight. But the Big Brotherhood was created and that organization is the multinational conglomerate of charity, construction, family and general suck’em suckers. It is much more under control of swAmi than the individual countries ashrams. I don’t know how many sets of books they have there. I would like to stress just one thing: It does not mean that if it looks good and maybe will do some good in some forgotten villages on the other side of the globe that it is legal. Boards have responsibilities. Main responsibility is to the legal system of the country where the organization is located. Somebody mentioned the palace like hospital with no doctors in India and other things. Just one of many examples. If the money collected is exempt from taxes, there needs to be follow up by the board that the particular project is not just a front end for money extraction scheme.

    To witness such an elevation of, till some time ago, just ordinary souls who can now completely discern and know with utmost certitude who is telling a lie and who is telling the truth – for me it is the most wonderful inspiration I could only pray for.

    Everybody is whatever they are. Your irony and sarcasm does not take away any facts that many people were told about these things over and over again throughout the years. In your comment I don’t hear even one real fact. Just funny form. Image. You are really good disciple of your master, you’ve learned that image is everything. If you save the image, you saved the world.

    I must humbly admit that I still have a lot to learn. I learned a lot from you, especially about emotions and feelings: I always thought (actually – a lot of people told me, I have never thought about that properly) that my emotions are showing me something about myself, and that they can lead toward my own wounds, convictions, fears etc., helping to understand myself a little bit better.

    Yes, emotions show us a lot about ourselves. They also show the world how we react to it, agree or disagree with things we see. They show when we love and when we hate. They show if we care and if not. Psychopaths have no emotions, no remorse, and no empathy. They even cannot correctly describe remorse or empathy when asked. It’s not there. Yes, we can learn from our emotions. Haven’t you noticed that many people here who were denying their real emotions for many years due to master’s “training” are now doing just that – learning from their emotions? Your irony again fails simple facts.

    But, luckily, you found your own center, you are balanced in such a way that you just know what is right and what is wrong (you don't have even to bother with that no more, you fortunate ones) and you are willing to fight (not some other people's battles, as many wrongly do) in non-aggressive and non-violent way, with deepest respect toward anyone who disagrees with you, without any prejudices (and certainly without any pride) to finally show the world the real and only truth, the one you realized.

    We do bother ourselves with it. Of course, you don’t. Which way is then more “non-aggressive and non-violent”? We are showing you our respect by enabling you to come to this forum and speak your mind. You are paying us your respect by disagreeing with some here and agreeing with others. Disagreeing does not mean violence. Where the heck have you heard such a nonsense?

    Your lantern is empty, get some oil or butter.

  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] June 2011
    Posts: 0
    Dear Someonefromhungary, you have part of answer to your question you asked me about xxxx not defending or discussing situation here in Ushmeypuri's post (up). Can you imagine that most of those people will even listen anything? Ushmeypuri is now telling to all that xxx is not coming to Europe because he is ashamed and so, but he is not accepting (I know that he know all the news) that xxx is staying in India because of serious health condition of her mother. Or he make her ill (operation, intensive care and so, you can read it even in our web page) just for this purpose? Can't you see that this other side don't want anything and will use anything for their story, even such thing like this? Second, do you thing that those people would trust him if he said This is not truth. And he can't prove it, he rely only on believing just like those girls. It is only matter of trust. There is one thing more, in my opinion, I would start to have doubts if he would going around telling I am not guilty, I am not guilty. But this is my opinion. And people getting all news regularly, they are not distanced, I know because I am coming to satsang in my center.
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @member: "And people getting all news regularly, they are not distanced, I know because I am coming to satsang in my center".
    What kind of news they get? Of course-independent, both ways of wiew are comprehended....or it is like every satsangs: indoctrination, giving away every critical thinkink and so on. It depends on hermeneutics-satsang is kind of purification or kind of indoctrination. I believe the both. And therefore in this case i am afraid that the news delivered in satsangs are very single sided....
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @member:

    dear member,

    it seems to me that you suggest that swAmi acts in this conflict the way he acts based on his expectations of how his ex-disciples or desciples in doubt would react...

    to me, this is again acceptable from the part of "ordinary people", but I expect an "enlightened master" to act without the need for such "tactical thinking"...

    I would expect from an "enlightened master", who gets seriously accused by several people and is innocent the following:
    he/she should invite everyone who has a serious complaint to an open discussion and peaceful settlement of the conflict. and should never suggest to his/her disciples to close ears and go ahead as if nothing happened under such circumstances. his primary objective should be to settle such a major conflict, not to repress it... thinking about what Ushmeypuri or I or other disciples would believe should be absolutely secondary to this...

    as far as swAmi's mother is concerned, I have no problem believing she's ill. if it turns out to be an excuse or something, that's bad but it's not really important for me now.

    (I have no information on the august program in strilky being cancelled, does anyone have such an info? Ushmeypuri, are you sure, that's also cancelled?)

    and I agree that going around repeating he's not guilty would not make too much sense...
    he already said in a short letter and in that radio interview in March that the allegations are not true. to some it was convincing, to others it wasn't.
    to me it was not convincing because it's not only in a radio interview with a loyal disciple and in an internal letter to yidl members that he should speak about this.
    he should speak directly to those who are accusing him. and he should be the inviting party, given his role and position.
    if something like this happened during the past 3 months, I would probably not have strong doubts about his innocence now.
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    I am not sure if testaments are true-but i see as a big problem with yidl doctrine: total suppression of critical thinking-it is very dangerous. The source of this is in older holy books, which was written by brahmin cast. They needed total control of "lower casts" and therefore they creatively wrote some holy books. Believe in Guru, dont thing negative, Guru is more than God-how many gurus are there now and how many of them are living Gods? Jesus says i am messenger, but "we know who" sit on piedestal as a living God and let his sadhakas bow down and proclaim that "we know who" dont make mistakes...because he is like living God..... please, use your own brain-my own opinion is, that "we know who" can change it and come back as he was before-humble mesenger.....but photos from kumbhamela says somethig else....Maharaja with yellow army, no humbleness-what a pitty
  • falseswamijifalseswamiji June 2011
    Posts: 255
    Good response from Roman to Lanterna. thank you Roman , you saved my time.

    Considering xxx ill mother in India-why does he want everyone to know she is receiving "nutrition through a tube" and to show her very private photos from the intensive care unit on the www ?

    Looks like he needs to proof to someone that this is the reason why he can't get back to Europe.

    He could just say - my mother is on intensive care unit so I'm staying in India for a while- unless he was afraid of it- not to look like he is hiding there.

    If he had some legal authorities to convince , that expect him to show up in time , still he wouldn't have need to place his privacy in such a pathetic way on the web.

    So obviously he is convincing devotees all over the world that he really has to stay in India.
    But does an innocent man ( even more, SatGuru) need to convince the world in such a way? Of course - not.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] June 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @falseswamiji:
    I'm always amazed at how every single thing you people can invert the most perverse think
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @member: Why do you use plural?
    Then-if you use it-i will replay-on the one hand-it is hard time for every son if his loved mother dying or is seriosly ill.
    On the other hand-i cannot imagine to send such photo of my mother on internet. It is a bit unusual....We were with xxx long time-i know how he usually use photo of us for his (or us...) goals. Therefore i can understand that falsesvamiji is a bit suspicious about it....
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] June 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @mangal:

    I use the plural because there are few people doing that constantly, but I applogize, I should reply only to him. And I really can not see anything wrong in this photo ... actually I am happy that I can see how Mataji looks, this photo just woke up warm feelings in me.
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @member: Its very good if this photo makes such feelings in you. I just think, that it is very intimate photo and therefore i am a bit surprise that it is showed on international web. I think that very public web is not the right place for intimate family photos and therefore someone can have some suspiction about it.
  • lanterna June 2011
    Posts: 9
    Hello people!

    It was a real pleasure (and for batawe: yes, even jouissance:)) to read your comments, I thank you for that. You are very precious people, please don't consider this as an irony. I would like to express my tremendous gratitude for being given an opportunity to learn once again. I hope that others will not get offended, but my special thanks must go to Roman. He clarified everything in most generous way, and words of such wisdom, maturity, level-minidedness, penetrating insights and superb logic, without any trace of an assumption about my post (not to think about absolute lack of any kind of manipulation by him) must be studied with the utter thoughtfulness. From him I am trying to learn not to jump to conclusion ever again, so I will study it and try to really understand, as deep and far as I could go.

    Save the cheerleader, save the world!

    Humbly yours,
    lanterna

  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @lanterna:

    dear lanterna,

    I tried not to consider your posts ironic, but I didn't manage. so I will call it irony for simplicity.

    and I wanted to say that I would be happy to hear your views without this irony.
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347
    To @lanterna:
    Lanterna, I did not mean used motor oil.

    Roman
  • lanterna June 2011
    Posts: 9
    Reply to @Roman: I will ponder upon this one, too. At this moment, it seems almost impenetrable. I can't thank you enough for everything.
  • Ivan June 2011
    Posts: 161
    All right! Lanterna started to break! C'mon, grabe a beer and chevapchichi with me and you'll be free :D
  • joyriver June 2011
    Posts: 101
    Reply to @Ivan: Viva! :)
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    I want to react to one part of lanterna's infamous post of yesterday:

    "And when I found out how Swami stole the knowledge of yoga from some other yogi, his fellow brother"

    He's ridiculing earlier claims by members of this forum that swAmi has learned his asanas from swami Satyananda and students. But when I compare YiDL with Satyananda(R) Yoga I see many similarities.
    I have a Croatian copy of the Satyananda's famous book 'Asana Pranayama Mula Bandha' from 1969 (don't ask me how I got it).

    * When I look at the 'pawanmuktasanas' (the introductory exercises) in that book I see many similar exercises as in the YiDL sarva hitta asanas: the arm and hand exercises are the same, the foot and toe exercises are the same, they both have the Half Butterfly and Butterfly, the Bending and Straightening the Arms and Shoulder Circling exercises are the same, it's got the same neck relaxation exercises, they both have the Bicycling exercise, the Pavana Muktasana, the Twisting with Legs Bent (both versions), Rolling Sideways with Legs Bent, the Boat, Rope Pulling, the Crawl, Grinding, Rowing, Tensing the Thighs, Manduki Asana, Standing from Squatting and Crow Walking

    * Then, when I look at the 'Stojece I Savijajuce Asane' (any Croatian speaker wants to translate this?) I see many similarities with 'Level 2' of YiDL: they both have the Hasta Utthanasana, Akarana Dhanurasana, Katichakrasana, Utthita Lolasana, Meru Prishthasana, Utthanasana, and Dvikonasana.

    * Both YiDL and Satyananda(R) Yoga stress the importance of the hatha yoga kriya's (they both call the cleaning exercises 'hatha yoga', as opposed to other yoga systems).

    * Both systems have the Yoga Nidra.

    * Both use the words 'Yoga capsules' or 'Capsule Programs' (YiDL for the Khatu Pranam, which is quite similar to Surya Namaskar by the way). http://www.satyanandayoga.co.za/capsules.html

    * Both systems have special books devoted to the same specific health problems: for example for asthma and diabetes, for hypertension, for the digestive system and for the heart.

    * Both S.Y. and YiDL have (had) a very active Australian department and they both have designed a yoga teacher training: http://www.satyananda.net/yogic-studies

    * In both systems devotees are supposed to wear costumes in certain colours.

    I might study some more to find more similarities, but so far it's pretty impressive, I think.
    So Lanterna, if you would like to express your gratitude once again, I won't stop you. :-)
  • falseswamijifalseswamiji June 2011
    Posts: 255
    'Stojece I Savijajuce Asane' = standing and bending asanas
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @falseswamiji: thanks
  • Australia_CallingAustralia_Calling June 2011
    Posts: 42
    Satyananda retired to India with little warning and went into seclusion - with a very dark cloud over his head, darker than the one over us now. The details are not very clear but it was many years before he was seen publically again.
    It seems that many decent people are in the organisation now but it had to get created again from the dust. They have a very different form than previous and a new leader who seems clear and decent so far as i have heard.
    Their policies around leaving children alone with adults other than parents are very strict and clearly written - that's normal procedure in Australia.
  • Ivan June 2011
    Posts: 161
    @truthseeker: most of the yoga exercises on first four levesl of YIDL are not traditional haṭha-yoga but exercises Satyananda put in his system as a preparatory for the traditional āsanas which start to appear on 4. and 5. level in YIDL system. Most of the exercises from first four levels of YIDL are not traditional yoga but western gymnastics or rehabilitation exercises adopted by Satyananda who gave them Sanskrit names. SwAmi went on the teacher seminar in late sixties or early seventies, immediately after his dikṣā in Bihar where he learned them together with Yoga nidra from Satyananda or his instructors. There is no doubt that YIDL is a serious plagiarism, however the āsanas are grouped in eight, not three levels and the āsanas you have mentioned are not copyrighted so they didn't have the ground for court. Bihar school is also much bigger organization in the West and the States and India so YIDL was never a threat for them.
    The old guru, for instance, never practised yoga. Vishnu puri from Zagreb was couching him how to practise āsanas.
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Ivan: so my question to the swAmi devotees is: what do you think of the fact that he has taken his system from another school and pretends he all made it up himself? Is that proper behaviour? Satyananda's behaviour himself also doesn't seem so good, adopting western exercises and giving them a Sanskrit name, unless he openly told so.

    All in all it further demystifies yoga for me. An Indian takes Western exercises, gives them Sanskrit names to 'yogafie' them and brings them back to the West as authentically Indian, then another Indian takes it from him and makes his own 'system', giving it the name of a book of the other Indian guy's teacher. I really marvel their genius! I might start my own yoga-system, it seems quite profitable.
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @truthseeker: yes, there should be no mistification around yoga, no naama lilaa :)
    but yes, unfortunately, there is... people are told that sanskrit is a "divine" language, again something absolute, something mistifying... it's certainly special in it's role and evolution, but ultimately, it just a language that happened to be described and also heavily prescribed in very great detail by someone apparently called paanini and happened to end up as the common language between the educated people of the indian subcontinent for a long time... more or less like latin in europe... it's partly a natural language, partly an artificial language.
  • Ivan June 2011
    Posts: 161
    Reply to @truthseeker: Satyananda openly told this in his books. He concluded that traditional postures were too difficult for regular practitioners. So he took/modified some exercises as a preparation for "real" postures. In his book on Yoga nidra he described how he had come up with this exercise.
  • lanterna June 2011
    Posts: 9
    Reply to @truthseeker and others:
    Yes, I do see your point, I saw it even before I wrote my first post. It is shameless to steal the knowledge of yoga, in this case, and not to mention its author ever again; I can not disagree on that. But, in the light of complete honesty and truthfulness that reigns on this forum, I would like to confess about similar problematic episode from my own private life. For me, it is still very difficult to talk about it, because it's a wound that didn't heal yet - an open wound, some might say… I am deeply ashamed, but I must say, in my own defense (and yet, I know that there is no excuse for that), at that time I just didn't know better. I will not go into details, but I will tell you the basics (hoping you will understand). So, to cut it short – few years ago, after I have published certain texts and received some positive feedback (even some praises), I got sued! By my elementary school teacher! You can just imagine, I was in a complete shock! And why? I must say that when I read the accusation, it sounded quite ridiculous – she was suing me for steeling. Steeling the knowledge of letters (that some call the alphabet) - can you believe? I couldn't and actually thought, carried by my ego, it would be "piece-of-cake" law-suit. But it wasn't at all. Her point was that I would not be able to write any of my texts if there has not been her assistance and her special techniques for facilitate the learning process of letters. She didn't claim she invented those letters, but she was outraged by the fact that in any of my texts there was no mention of her, the one who taught me this special thing. The only problem at the court was that she didn't protect herself with copyright/authorship law and that's how I got off the hook. I hope you will excuse me for simplifying and not mentioning other dirty details of this story, but, I have to admit – in the end, even when I was not accused by any point, I didn't feel a relief, only deep embarrassment. That's why I am now trying to correct the wrong I have done to that woman and I am dedicating every letter I wrote here or elsewhere to her. I am aware there is almost no chance that she would ever read these lines, but still – I am expressing my gratitude and remorse to You, dear Teacher!

    I think I learned something from that experience and that's why I find very important that you write and discuss about all the swami's deviations from being at least decent human (and we all know that He should be much more than that!)

    I am also thanking every one of you who provided me some space and possibility to write this, it is very respectful.
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