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Critical implications
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Simple and hard question at the same time, yet necessary: "In what way should we see the victim or the abused in relation to her own desire in the whole picture?" "Why did the women allow themselves to do the things, which they didn't want to do at the first place?" "Why they didn't say NO! and walked out of the room?" The psychology of a victim is a complex thing, I am aware of that; it's the same thing when things happens in family, like verbal assaults and intimidation, which is also an abuse of different kind etc...victim just doesn't have the power to say NO! and walk away and that is the problem of the victim also; why this powerlessness?...why did the person allow her/himself to act as a victim? Why did she repeat the same process many times? Can we see the victim as a constitutional part of the problem? And I think the answer to this question will throw some light on the future responsibility, not to allow her/himself to be a victim anymore. Slave is always intrinsically connected to the Master.
    The main problem is always, that when you are surprised and in stupor, like zombie, you can do certain things, even if you do not want it. For example, when the girl started to pull down the trousers of the other girl in the testimonial, why did she allow her to do it? In a way, even if she couldn't act differently as she acted at that time, in a sense, she is also responsible for her actions, even if the 'victim' appears as one without her will, powerless etc...even if the circumstances were such and such, even if it was happening unconsciously, automatically, still, you co-authored it and allowed it to happen, taken from a certain perspective. This questions are part of the future solution of the problem; the status of a victim must be taken into account, from victim's perspective also...Any thoughts on that?
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @batawe:
    ..."In what way should we see the victim or the abused in relation to her own desire in the whole picture?" "Why did the women allow themselves to do the things, which they didn't want to do at the first place?" "Why they didn't say NO! and walked out of the room?"...

    I think it’s little more complicated. In math you have something called “starting conditions”. You can have a function or mathematical model which will yield certain results. (Tony and other mathematicians, do not kill me on too many details, my calculus is a little bit rusty :) Those results though will be totally dependent on those starting conditions. By altering specific starting conditions you can get completely different, even opposite results (for example “true” value with one and “false” value with different one to make it simple). Let’s speak about one particular example of the “abused victims” calling it that way for lack of a better term, Awakened. Let’s now not discuss if her testimony has inconsistencies and all these things. Everybody knows my opinion about it, so let’s move past that. She becomes swAmi’s disciple at the age of 14. I don’t know exactly how it was but I think I’ve heard that she was brought to him by her mother. (And everybody, please leave her mom alone.) She is young, talented, intelligent, sensitive girl looking for something what goes beyond the realm of day to day experiences etc… We all were fourteen (I hope you too, batawe :) And she thinks that she found the answer in this spiritual master. Have you heard about peer pressure? It drives every teenager. It was the same with me. Just, we did much more parties and “non spiritual” stuff. I had no idea what I was doing. Here you have elaborated peer pressure and character, personality, mind, body and soul molding by the master and everybody around you (who is being molded too by the master). Starting conditions are being defined and when you grow into beautiful women, you get the call to come to the bedroom/hotel room/room on the top of Jadan ashram or wherever. You are confused about your sexuality because you are beautiful woman full of forces of natural hormones and one of your peers starts pulling down your trousers… Once it’s done the first time you come back (as your peers did before you) to continue this sick journey because you’ve been “made”. Ceremonies, tantra, whatever is handy jumps up at you to conform you to your status as a SEX SLAVE. I am so glad that there are those brave ones, who were able to get out of this degrading state. To those who want to remain in it and/or protect the one who put them into it, I will say just one thing. It is your right which nobody can take away from you. I can understand it, sympathize with it (because I am not so totally evil and asuric as you may think) but I cannot change the fact that regardless of calling it wife, loyal disciple or bhakta, it is still SEX SLAVE, SEX SEVI. If I was into it I would pray for you but I don’t do it anymore. I rather act (aham karta). All I am trying to do is to help. Whatever I am, I know that I am not anybody’s slave. Somebody could say: How about death? Well, when the time comes, I’ll punch the clock as anyone else has to. Nobody really knows what’s going to happen afterwards. I will know one thing though. I’ve died as a free man.
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @Roman: Yes, I agree with what you said; certainly the conditions must be there for things to happen and I am also speaking from my own experience and being a 'slave' in psychological conditions, when I was at a certain point pushed to the wall and at that time, I reacted also as a 'victim', and I couldn't reacted differently, as I was not able to digest it properly nor was I ready, I didn't stood for myself at that time, as I thought "it's just some misunderstanding, all will be well, and I will take the bad handling of others on myself, as a certain necessary 'sacrifice' "...yes, and the "Act" (which cuts the dependence) in a proper sense, is when you are ready to symbolically 'die' and see that the Other, who is supposedly your 'master'/whom you valued (consciously or unconsciously), is himself "dead already", meaning, that the Other, is full of Inconsistencies himself, and that behind the appearance of Authority there is nothing, just a showmanship and impotent player, who maintains his grip on the 'victim' by intimidation and his own fear of loosing you, so, the "freedom" starts when you are ready to symbolically sacrifice the Other/or notion of the Other and his "Substance"...it's like, when the 'victim' takes upon her/himself the "guilt", it somehow tries to maintain the purity of that Other, to "feel guilty" is not to see the main problem, that things are going wrong, yet instead, with guilt you take upon yourself the burden, to save and rescue the purity of that Other , who still holds grip on you;
    it's like when the Leader makes something wrong, all the subjects take upon themselves the blame, cover things up, so that the Leader still maintains the purity and the authority of the Leader and his consistency remains intact; in that sense "the victim", with her/his guilt always saves the Leader/Father/Master, giving him life and maintaining the illusion, that he is 'alive and kicking', while at the same time we don't see, "that he was already 'dead' all the time", and even "he knew nothing about it", that's why we have to maintain the illusion that he still represents the Law for us, that he still exists; in reality he has no grip on us and he was all the time - already a 'dead', simple and impotent bluffer.
    We help the 'master' to maintain the illusion that behind the master there is this potency and a Law and Authority, and thus he believes in himself that he truly is that, when in reality "it's nothing there"...what is hiding behind the illusion that "there is something behind it", is the subject's personal omission and inability, to see that "there is nothing behind it".
    What has to be maintained for all cost, is the appearance, "that behind the appearance there is something".................that's the illusion we fall upon...

    Yes Roman, I was 14 once;))) and I was also green as a greenest grass of the green green SupraCasa of the greenest home;)

    So, in that sense, what you already said Roman, together with this reply, I am also for the radical removal (within your own symbolic space, falsely attaching this Substance to somebody and becoming his subservient slave), of all the Personages who maintain this mysterious Consistency about themselves, which finally fu...s you up, by yielding to the position of subservience, in the name of "maintaining the power and Image of the Father/Leader/Master".
    'Father' was all the time 'dead', and even He, was not aware of this double illusion, that's why he needs to know, and he'll disappear along with his 'power'...
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    I think that this slave - master condition is part of our daily life on this planet. You are slave of a certain country or society (you have to pay taxes), you are slave of some company (you are doing whatever you are asked for money), if you are in a relationship you have to accept certain rules. We are trained and forced to obey from the first moment we start our journey in this life. In very general terms on this planet we are all depending from the nature, we can say that we are it's slaves. By the way from my point of view this is also the base and need for spirituality that we all have inside us as one of the codes of happiness: we need to be in peace with nature, otherwise (or anyway) it will kill you.
    Think about the condition of a new born baby. A new born baby has a very simple and powerful instrument of measuring the level of happiness or unhappiness. If it's happy is smiling, if it's unhappy is crying. To be happy it needs the proper food, clothes, cuddling, attention, ambiance (air, water, temperature...). A happy baby would never cry. But we let them cry = be unhappy mostly because we think we have to train them to accept our world, our rules and sometimes because we are unable to understand them or because we think our needs and desires are more important than theirs. But generally we think that we know better than themselves what is the right thing for them. We are manipulating them. But if the aim of our manipulation is exclusively our own pleasure, the manipulation becomes an abuse. But on this topic I think we all agree: when recognised the abuser must be stopped and the potential new victims informed about the danger. Now we started to discuss about the circumstances from the victim's perspective: why it happened and why it took it so long for them to recognize the abuse?
    Just take the example of YIDL family. It gives you pleasure (all yoga exercises do), security (a big family), a quite sustainable and direct taxation (you give as much as you can and want of your money and time) and it gives you LOVE. Your guru loves you - I can still feel the effect of his sweet words in my heart. The only thing you need to do is to surrender to him and HE will lead you through your life, death, rebirth and redeath till the final liberation. And he is here on this planet to liberate all it's creatures. He is the ONE. He is your father, your mother, your husband, your friend, he is everything for you. People are bending in front of him, touching, kissing his feet... And sometimes his love becomes so big and exclusive that he wants to spend some special time with you. You don't like the special services he is asking you to perform with him but who knows maybe this is part of all this liberation stuff. And you still love him = are connected with him, depending on him.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @pavitra:
    I agree with you on what you have said. I still distinguish between slavery and dependency, co-dependency. To me, slavery is much more dirty word. We all are dependent on nature because we are part of that nature. We may get killed by the disaster but we know what tsunami does and that’s part of our relationship with nature. We are dependent on states because we are part of those states. But not every state puts us in the state of slavery. Not everybody in the state is a slave. There are masters there too. I felt like slave in communist Czechoslovakia and I was paying much less taxes than here in the US. I may feel dependent on many things here (and lot of them I don’t like), but I don’t feel like a slave. I am speaking for myself and I understand that the issue of slavery in the US has different connotation for African Americans. I am using this imperfect analogy just to express my views on different subject. Child – parent relationship is one of the most co-dependent relationships we can imagine. But it should never be relationship on master – slave bases. It may be just semantics but that makes a lot of difference to me. Because the slave is somebody like Spartacus, woman dragged by hair to her new master after victorious battle, those people at the bottom of the boat going to the new horizon which for them means no freedom whatsoever. If you are slave, whatever master says you MUST obey. If you are slave you MUST NOT speak back to your master. He/she can do whatever he/she wants to do with you. You MUST obey and overcome all your impulses given to you by the infinitely wise nature. And he/she can kill you, which is kind of the same like to liberate you.
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    when I use terms "master-slave", I use them in a minimal-structural-symbolic sense; it doesn't mean necessarily the concrete master as opposed to 'lifeless' position of a slave; this seeming opposition is just a basic minimal relation that structures later "roles" that we can take towards the Other..."Master-Slave" dialectic was used also by Hegel and I quote from wikipedia;):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_dialectic

    *****Enslavement and mastery
    Truth of oneself as self-conscious is achieved only if both live; the recognition of the other gives each of them the objective truth and self-certainty required for self-consciousness. Thus, the two enter into the relation of master/slave and preserve the recognition of each other.*****
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    I agree with you Roman: dependency would be a more appropriate word I could use. I'm still a little grumpy with my English and I wanted to add some drama. I believe that our life mission as humans is freedom and indipendency but I tried to imagine the situation and the deeper reasons that made the sex abuses to happen and endure for so long.
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    everything arises in inter-dependent orignation :) :( :)
    (buddhist commonplace :))
  • michalsladek May 2011
    Posts: 17
    Reply to @batawe: You put it so clearly. It is so obvious that swAmi can't afford to admit the Truth, otherwise the whole thing would come down. I mean the 'guru illusion'. The system as it is now. Centralised, narrow-minded, controlling, isolationist, elitist, you name it.

    Not necessarily YIDL as a community of well meaning and dedicated people who just like yoga and meditation. Have a look at current YIDL website from Australia. It will be interesting to see future developments there. In some way they are pushed to continue with the business- commercial leases are binding and the mortgage has to be paid- they can't just wrap up everything today. Let us see whether they morph into something new or gradually dissolve. What could hold them together and keep going? It is like watching an real life experiment.
  • michalsladek May 2011
    Posts: 17
    Ending relationships is not easy.

    The most noticeable thing to the outside observer (and the least noticeable to the one involved) is that the emotional intensity usually stays the same, it just flips into it's negative aspect. Love becomes hate. The emotional cord remains the same. Before- thoughts and feelings of love turned now into a highway of negativity flowing in both directions. I would not be surprised if swAmi would be able to meditate properly these days. The waves are too high for him too.

    Another thing. Sexual bond is strong and does not just disappear. It is a strongest (or perhaps after mother-child) relationship between people. It is also, from my experience, the most difficult to see objectively. The pull is virtually invisible, it is 'me', so I can't observe it from outside. This explains that even after a long time and even knowing that it was wrong there was this expectation that 'he may call me again one evening'.

    Another thing. There are many aspects of a relationship. For example, some people leaving YIDL are torn between feeling free from being manipulated and from peer pressure and discovering that they can make their own decisions and- on the other side- having still some nostalgia for the bhajans, satsang, supportive community, yoga practice, even the smell of insence or delicious vegetarian food are mighty emotional pulls. So the confusion is caused by these various aspects pulling into OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS.

    The only way out of this is to become aware of one's own pulls and reactions. Only then they gradually become weaker and allow one to become wiser, whole and radiant again.

  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    This dicussion including the reading the Hegel's slave-master dialectic made me aware of why at a certain point of our life we all needed our swAmi. And for many of us he isn't maybe the last one. swAmi itself in some satsangs explained this process in the ideal terms taking the example of Paras (the stone that transforms everything it touches into gold). He said that the role of the Guru is higher (or more profound) as it doesn't turn his disciples into gold but into Paras itself - a Guru. The problem is that he was then always explaining that he- the Guru - is perfect and realized and is giving itself to us completely but we are unable to surrender and uplift ourselves because of our weaknesses, our blindness, our lack of knowledge... He convinced us that is all our fault in order to maintain this master - slave relation that gave to him so many privileges.
    As he was so convincing with us we can understand how someone can believe that if he is making sex with you is because of your own desires and your inability to control the impulses that could make you become victim of some crazy men and take you away from your spiritual path. He is again giving himself (literally in this case) to you and again it's all your fault that you are unable to uplift yourself. And we perserve hardly working on ourselves, waiting for the miracle to come...
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @Roman: I understand your points, but I think that being a “slave” of one’s emotions, attractions, basic and social needs etc., and the resulting inability to leave a partner/husband/wife/anyone for shorter or longer periods is quite an everyday situation...

    so for me, if one says he/she is happy (enough) in a relationship to maintain it... even if I would feel abused in that relationship... I can imagine myself believing that person... I can imagine myself not thinking that he/she must be a “slave” by definition... or at least not much more than “usual”...

    I had a dream about this yesterday... me and someone (who seemed to be a long-term partner in the dream) are simply going somewhere by bus... and talking... from time to time he says something that hurts... apparently just little stings but... every time it happens, something hot comes up and painfully bursts free in me and I feel like “this is it, I’ve had enough, I’ll go”.... but in the very next moment, I feel cold and shrinking and the will collapses in me and I hear my mind telling “it is not that bad”... and this burst-and-collapse repeats itself several times...
    to me, the whole dream seemed like an extremely compact modelling of the problem as I see it: was I a “slave” or wasn’t I in this dream?

    (btw, I have never been abused or a slave by any conventional definition)
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @someonefromhungary:
    I agree with you. Still I think that the term "slave" should not be used too broadly if used in this context. To me, and I think to many other people, “relationship” represents some kind of partnership based on many things but one of them has to be mutual respect. If that one is missing, it cannot function at the end as really healthy relationship. Believe me, I’ve learned this one the hard way :) There is no genuine respect involved in real master – slave relationship. It is based on power and fear. Of course everybody’s got their own threshold were some kind of tolerable and maybe wanted dependency stops and abuse starts. That may be the reason why some women who had been in similar situation with swAmi like those who came out, but they don’t want to talk about it, they consider it as their private thing and they like it. I’ve said many times that I respect that. But they should not use the same standard for the others who may feel differently. That is not fair, that is not even thoughtful.

    I am glad that you have never been abused or slave. You also sound like it :)
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Roman: you say that a partnership should be based on mutual respect. Do you think that swAmi had respect for the probably hundreds of women he had sex with during the years? They respected him and the ones who were willing were ready to give everything they had. But I think, also when I read the stories, that swAmi didn't care much for the feelings and needs of those women, he probably only cared about his needs and manipulated those women to get them fulfilled. I don't call that respectful or good social behaviour. Real love is about mutual giving.

    If swAmi had gone to prostitutes he would at least have been honest about his intentions to women and he would have paid them for it. That would have been a clear situation without manipulation (no pretentions about love) and with the women in the leading position (ideally she sets the boundaries what is allowed and what not). But here it was the women who were subordinate and who had to pay, without getting anything back, except illusions.

    But the women who have been with him and defend him maybe don't see it that way.
    They maybe think he really loves them and cares for them. As long as they think like that, there's nothing we can do.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    What do we really know where he had gone?
  • speakup May 2011
    Posts: 57
    Just to bring another focus to this discussion - for me there are two issues that are linked - one is the abuse of women and the other issue is that I think YIDL is a mind control cult. When people are in a mind-control cult they lose the capacity to think critically about most things in their lives. They lose the capacity to make real choices and to exercise genuine free will - and in this state they are open to abuse. Most sexual abuse is also about power, not about sex!

    I would recommend some reading about mind control to get some understanding of this. Steve Hassan who has worked for decades with counselling people out of cults was once a member of the Moonies himself. He draws on the work of Robert J Lifton and others who have studies and written extensively about mind control.
    This process happens quite slowly at first but there are certainly elements that he describes that sound just like YIDL. In the book "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steve Hassan he describes four elements that are part of mind control cults, these are:

    1. Behaviour control - regulation of a person's physical reality, including control of the environment, where people live, what clothes you wear, what food you eat, how much sleep you get - as well as jobs, rituals etc.
    2.Thought control - indoctrinating members so that they internalize the group doctrine, incorporating a new language system, thought stopping techniques to keep the mind centred - use of loaded language, blocking out any information that is critical of the group or the leader
    3. Emotional control - Use of guilt and fear are necessary to keep people under control, keeping people off balance - praise one minute then criticism; phobia indoctrination eg. 'something really bad will happen if I leave'
    4. Information control - deny people access to critical information - not allowing people to talk freely about issues, many levels of "truth"

    When I look at these elements - I can personally think of many examples from YIDL that fit this profile. There is also some good information on web and plenty of other resources available.

    A good starting point is Freedom of Mind website:

    http://freedomofmind.com/
  • RatanPuri May 2011
    Posts: 42
    Reply to @speakup:
    Actually it is considered as advantage and uniqueness of yoga that it is so complementary system which influences your way of thinking, doing, breathing in daily life. It is a way to your social, mental, physical and spiritual health. Now everyone can examine on its own thoroughly how yoga in his daily life influences contacts with society, professional life, mental health. As everything is relative I would propose to examine it in relation to the world outside one's own bubble. For me yoga should give us strength to face reality of the world. If process goes in direction of getting closed into the own social, mental, emotional bubble thats not strength I am talking about and that is falling into illusion and weakening. If the reason of that is being convinced that one is a follower of higher truth compared to others who are wondering in the darkness that is not only falling into illusion which is spiritually, mentally, socially and at the end for sure physically harmful but also can be considered as dangerous when we talk about such a phenomenon in a group of people cause it creates mechanism which easily hurt others.
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    the pattern in YIDL is very clear. Spend every free time you have practising yoga, attendind satsangs and seminars, avoiding all discussions (you have to listen and obey as this is the only way the knowledge can be passed on from your master). The yoga duties are taking so much of your time that you really can't to do anything else. If you are not doing yoga or listening to your master, you have to keep maona, not speak, even not smile at others. Not listen to any negative news (and don't spread it). Being in touch with other people is kushang (bad company). You have to avoid it. These are some of the instructions given from S. for your life. After his satsnags I was always feeling guilty or stupid or incompetent and I was so happy that he still loved me. And everytime, every single day and month and year I was promising to him that I'll do better. Another very good technic he was using was to torture people asking to perform some very easy but painful posture and keep it till he will not allow you to finish.
  • karavan May 2011
    Posts: 135
    He just thinks westermers are really stupid, and they really are!
  • PallasAthene May 2011
    Posts: 246
    To understand how something functions in general it needs to know the settings a little bit. So I found the BBC documentary about India. It should be 7 parts, but part 6 has been deleted by youtube. Anyway it is very interesting because it shows an abstract of the Indian history with the eyes of an english reporter.

    The indigenous people or aboriginals of India came from Africa und they were first located in the south, were you will find matriarchal structures. Later the aryans (they called themselves aryan) invaded or colonised in the north-western region India, (Harappan civilization) and with them sanskrit enter the indian culture. The by them supported caste system assure their position as a brahmin, the highest powerful level in this society. Sanskrit became the official high level language as in our culture Latin were used amongst others to cement class divide.

    The Rigveda mentions horses in a ancient time they did not exist in India (fyi: domestication of a horse: approx. 2.000 BC). In fact there is a battle in India about the vedic culture and the indian roots.

    Wiki: “Questions surrounding the Rigvedic Sarasvati river and the Nadistuti sukta in particular have become tied to an ideological debate on the Indo-Aryan migration (termed "Aryan Invasion Theory") vs. the claim that Vedic culture together with Vedic Sanskrit originated in the Indus Valley Civilisation (termed "Out of India theory"), a topic of great significance in Hindu nationalism“ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda#.22Indigenous_Aryans.22_debate

    This question is the playground for upper class priviliged people as the main question for indian people is to what caste or tribe they belong to. That classification define your economic and social scopes. The main reason for scheduling society in classes at least is to avoid polluting brahmins and to apportion all sectors of economic and social activities accordingly to your classification. This could be done for a long time on the shoulders of approx. 70 milliones (approx 7,8 %) of dalits living outside of the society. At that point karma is the glue to combine religious and economic interests.

    Peoples of all religions like Buddhism, Christianity, Sikhism, Hinduism, Zorastrianism, Jainism and Islam live in India in caste groups or caste-like groups. Perhaps this is a transfer of the indigenous tribes, where everbody has his specific function in the group.

    Now, how can somebody improve this situation without touching religious belief.

  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @PallasAthene:
    So what is your point?
    It is not Hindus having a problem with being dealt like Hindus here.
    It is about violating the laws and moral of western societies we talk about.
  • PallasAthene May 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @Veritas:

    The point is, that I don’t need a test and scores to come to a conclusion. I need to know how something functions. I want to know what program I’ve passed and what source code it has..
    Watch the general and you can imagine how the single works.

    There are European having a problem dealt like European.

    I am not talking about violation, because there is nothing to talk about it. Everybody knows what is wrong and what is right. Every religion, every philosophy is telling us the same. Even the categorical imperativ should be enough.

    Moral is a very difficult thing. Often a good cover for hypocrisy. For this reason and because of my own road works I would never moralize.

    Life is more than black and white. This is very important for any violated person. They have to be empowered to be all colours between. Because only if you can understand why something could happen than you will be an active part healing yourselve.

    To realize that wicked situations in Hinduism are specified by bad karma in order to become people manifested in their victim role (caste system), could help to handle some reactions or to check up on own reactions. All should be observed in a gentle way.

  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @PallasAthene:
    Thank you for clearing it up. You seem to be an understanding person. Respect.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    There is certain cultural part in all this. At the end we all are tribal, we cling to the culture we know/we feel comfortable in. That does not mean that some culture is wrong. But there are good traits in cultures and less good ones. Anybody who had been to rural parts of India (Rajasthan or other places), have seen certain sexist stereotypes happening wherever they went. SwAmi was explaining it that the women are actually happy, doing heavy labor type of work like braking stones and guys standing around them, smoking and laughing. That they (women) understand how strong they are and they don’t mind it at all. I guess that’s why American, Australian, European and other women are too selfish, spoiled and disconnected from real spiritual roots (he used to say, using the “revere the mother” stuff). The strength of every culture is how she can look at her pluses and minuses with an open eye, support what is right and fix what is wrong.
  • VeritasVeritas June 2011
    Posts: 218
    Here is something a little bit off topic:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    image

    Baba Ramdev: India police break up yogi's Delhi protest

    Police in the Indian capital Delhi have broken up an anti-corruption protest led by controversial yoga guru Baba Ramdev.

    Around 30 people were injured as police fired tear gas to disperse thousands of his supporters, reports said.

    He had been fasting to demand that the government takes action to recover billions of dollars of suspected bribe money held in foreign bank accounts.

    Baba Ramdev was detained by police but later released.

    The police action followed angry exchanges between the authorities and Baba Ramdev over whether his demands had been accepted.

    He says he has no political affiliations, but his protest was backed by the main opposition party, the Hindu nationalist BJP.

    His protest comes as the Congress-led Indian government is struggling with a corruption scandal surrounding the sale of mobile phone operating licences.

    Baba Ramdev has also called for the death penalty for corrupt government officials.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13658695

    Looks like bad news for big orange. Let's see if "mother India" will grant him shelter.
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Veritas: "He says he has no political affiliations, but his protest was backed by the main opposition party, the Hindu nationalist BJP."

    Not really nice guys, at the BJP. They favour 'India for the hindus'. Other faiths are allowed, as long as they keep low profile.

    I read yesterday that Baba Ramdev believes homosexuality can be 'cured' by meditation. I also heard swAmi once say that it's a disease that has to be corrected. Those swamis usually have very old-fashioned ideas about these things.
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @truthseeker: if you are enlightened you get all the knowledge of the world;)))
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @batawe: It was one of my first doubt about swAmi. I was there when he replayed on humble question of one homosexual disciple (i know him)-question-i have problem-i am homosexual and i dont know-may i change it or may i found partner with the same orientation-the answer wos like shock for me (and for this boy surely too-i have never seen him after this...) Swami said-change it, change yourselfs-dont do such things......
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @mangal: hmm, yes, this is still a problem or taboo and regardless of modern society it still remains as some sort of unnatural perversity etc...and if you look at it from the heterosexual primate than of course it is; it deviates from the 'predestined' path that should be followed and which culminates in heterosexual unity etc...

    but Freud already showed that sexuality is much more evasive thing than it is supposed to be; and the sexual drive has many different phases and stops and subsequent fluctuations and is not something fixed; it somehow travels and can locate itself on/through various parts of the body;

    there is no sexuality as such at all; no special region or place where we can find it and than talk about it - sexuality isn't some kind of substance that we can find and show to ourselves or others: "look, this is sexuality and our biological substratum etc..."; it is a construction of various elements and the dynamics between somatic/bodily functions and psychic apparatus that gives different results - Sexuality does not exist...

    ...much of the heterosexual practice and elements we use to attain the desired goal (of sexual pleasure etc..) has many 'pathologies', deviations, that technically bypass the direct biological function of producing an offspring...heterosexuality is as much as homosexuality a thing which should be doubted, if we want to ask ourselves "what is sexuality as such (if there is one), what constitutes it and what are the various 'destinies' of the sexual drive that assumes many roles, positions, functions in its manifestation...

    ----------------------

    but let's see what hindu scriptures can tell us;)
    things are also very much evasive as the "thing in itself"...

    In the Bhagavata Purana, Vishnu takes the form of the enchantress, Mohini, in order to trick the demons into giving up Amrita, the elixir of life. Shiva later becomes attracted to Mohini and they have a relationship that results in the birth of a son.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_Hindu_mythology

    now, what does that mean to the un/observant eye?
    well, shiva had sex with vishnu through proxy (Mohini);)))
    some sort of 'homosexuality' also lurks here...
    In the Brahmanda Purana, Shiva's wife Parvati "hangs her head in shame" when she sees her husband's pursuit of Mohini. In some stories Shiva asks Vishnu to take on the Mohini form again so he can see the actual transformation for himself.[4] Stories in which Shiva knows of Mohini's true nature have been interpreted to "suggest the fluidity of gender in sexual attraction".

    According to Tamil versions of the Mahabharata, the god Krishna – an incarnation of Vishnu – also took the form of Mohini and married Aravan.


    etc...

    now check this sensual narration of Arjuna/Arjuni;) with whom Krishna sported in the woods;)))

    http://www.galva108.org/samesex.html

    “Shri Krishna said: ‘O Dhananjaya, I bless you, my dear [male] friend. There is none equal to you in the three worlds, as you know My secret. O Arjuna, you will curse Me if you talk to anyone about the secret which you wanted to know and have experienced.’”
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @batawe: interesting hermeneutics based on holy book-but this book is mix of all kind of fary tales, creatively rewriten by brahmins, therefore i understand your method as a narrative philosophy:)
  • Ivan June 2011
    Posts: 161
    Reply to @truthseeker: I remember exactly one seminar where he was asked about homosexuality. He anwsered that he didn't think too much about it but he is sure that it is curable...
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