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Don´t ignore not everybody believes
  • Tony June 2011
    Posts: 172
    Reply to @friend: Look. This forum is open. Anyone can come and say whatever they want. I can't speak for Roman, but I don't think the name should be changed. The discussion is absolutely open, and unmoderated, however, the foundation of the forum, its very reason for existence, is still the outrage over the allegations.

    You are right that for some people the name of the forum makes it difficult to join. I believe that changing the name would make very little difference to them. The topics that are being discussed here are guaranteed to be far more repelling and uncomfortable for people who would be put of by a mere name. If someone cannot tolerate even the name, they will surely die if they read some of the posts here.

    Having said that, I personally would just love to have more strong, funny, intelligent, coherent and logical people arguing for the other side. Welcome!
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @Tony: correctamundo!
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @mangal: I agree...for people who never had any contact or experience or need to have a guru, to be a disciple, to have some kind of perspective of "realizing god";), all this is irrelevant and out of his/her interest; but for all who were IN and now they are coming out or are out already or some who were never IN, but now they can think about it, if they are here, than I agree with Mangal on this point, that certain concepts, certain formal/symbolic positions of Guru-'God' and disciple, must be comprehended from different perspectives and a question should be asked (to ourselves) what is the thing that compelled us to worship someone as 'god'...

    one thing is knowledge about something and second is the practice (especially spiritual practices) and third thing is the projection of the truth on someone or something, around which our desire than circulates, and around which our life then circulates and how all things should than be summarized under that chosen object or path or person etc...

    and here you get this (which I already wrote many times), love-transference on some person...be it Stalin, Charles Manson or some Guru...it doesn't matter...point is that someone can become an idol, representation of ego-Ideal, embodied in one person who is than incorporated in one's system to again work as an superego (conscience) who demands more purification and more work on yourself etc...

    EGO-IDEAL (Freud) : The ideal of perfection that the ego strives to emulate. For Freud, the ego-ideal is closely bound up with our super-ego. The super-ego is "the vehicle of the ego ideal by which the ego measures itself, which it emulates, and whose demand for ever greater perfection it strives to fulfil" ("New Introductory Lectures" 22.65). Given the intimate connection of the super-ego to the Oedipus complex, the ego-ideal is likely "the precipitate of the old picture of the parents, the expression of admiration for the perfection which the child then attributed to them"

    and than, there is one other thing; form a philosophical realm, but let's just mention a little bit religious structure which more or less works as I stated also many times, as relation between central figure and subjects around that central figure and things then work within that ideological structure which incorporates already certain rules of religious activities, purifications etc...and going to philosophy; there are also philosophers who were disciples of their master-philosopher but still, the difference that is visible between religious guys or philosophers is huge:

    par example...Aristoteles, one of the best Plato's disciple said: that if he had to chose between the friendship and truth he would chose the truth...and that was the reason he split with his teacher and went on his own philosophical quest...and many philosophers if you look at them, were exactly more or less singular, one man band;)...no fanatic followers of any kind..of course there are people who gather around later and want to hear or read what philosopher has to say,,but no religious crazy behaving; ok, you have Pitagora and his mystical school which also had certain rules and stuff..

    and the Master Pitagora never showed his face to his disciples and was talking behind the curtain;), the only thing you heard was his voice but you were not allowed to see his face (probably he didn't want their disciples to attach themselves to visual-love-transference-mechanism of becoming their fetish)...and also the drive of certain philsophers to "know the truth" is much greater and more sincere than many religious maniacs..that's why philosophy and religion were not really good friends...philosophy is not for massess, religion is...

    my critic goes to all those that work with concepts like god, soul, destiny, reincarnation, karma, Infinite/Finite, etc...especially these metaphysical concepts that are dealt with; some of them sell it like being on vegetable market, selling potatoes, tomatoes, carrots, cabbage and whatnot ...and not presenting more insights and elaborate presentation of their spiritual view but throw these potatoes around like joke and even claim that they have BECOME the KNOWERS, that THEY REPRESENT the TRUTH (as if TRUTH/GOD particularly CHOSE THEM - and that we can never verify, nor we need to)...etc...

    and even todays possibilities that are offered of how to attain truth, through various techniques etc...many times inducing certain mental states through mechanical means or any other way of attaining mystical divine stupor, sound very much promising; and all in the name of attaining (everlasting) happiness, succesfulness in business or relationships etc...there are mix of every sort of stuff and they all propagate some kind of solution to our human problems and ailments; as if,,just little technique per day and you'll get enlightened,,not just that,,you'll get creative,,not just that, your life will manifest an blossom and universe will start to work FOR YOU!;))...

    we all search for HAPPINESS! - that's the motto, sounds nice...but it's just another happy-Ideology; and no technique will help you as the problems that we encounter in evryday life is far more connected with so many things around us and in us, that just the sole technique can't do miracles,,,it's good to relieve stress etc., to know the ways how to cool down a little bit but still there are plenty of things to handle, beside the mental fixations of super-duper spiritual calling-enlightenment-agenda...

    just meditating and thinking this will solve everything is misunderstanding...you can meditate for 20 years and still be an asshole; what has changed?

    neither you have become more ethical, nor more useful, no more insightful, no more learned, nor more creative per se...what then?---

    meditation is just a small drop among many other things (complexities) of life...
    many people who never ever probably meditated nor do they consider themselves as special chosen people of any kind...are much loving, working, creative, insightful etc...and they also in their own way search for the 'truth', maybe they do not label themselves as believers, theists or spiritualists but know much more and have much more insight into the nature of human being and even metaphysical topics than many newly-born-spiritual-enlighteners...

    spirituality is much wider concept than mere fashion-yoga people of today....

    G. W. F. HEGEL said: SPIRIT IS A BONE!
  • PallasAthene June 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @batawe:

    and mere fashion-yoga people are much wider than any concept....:))))

    I am sure you know the story, why adam and eve had to leave the paradise. They tasted the fruit from the tree of cognition. Afterwards they realised that they were nude and they were ashamed. Because of the intellectual power they gained up to now we have to decide what is good or not. That's why we lost the paradise, which is similar to live without questions...:)

    I have something nice for you, but you have to read a lot...:)

  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @PallasAthene:
    ...they can be wider but still not wiser;))), and of course,,spirituality doesn't need intellect and mind and such stuff - let's transcend, feel things and dive into inner bliss aka divine pleasure!;)...

    even for intellect to function you need 'heart'/passion; it's not only dry intellect working...

    adam & eve..that's another story again;)...and we can find holes in that story too and god in the story is much a part of the problem as adam and eve;)...it is questionable if you think about it: how could Adam decide, if before he knew what a decision was at the first place (between good and evil), he somehow decided, before the possibility of decision that was only seen retroactively as a wrong decision...and the knowledge of good and evil was a product of his unconsciouss 'decision'...decision/act of choice was in fact really open only after the Fall...

    for him to CHOOSE, it is already presupposed that he already KNOWS "what is choice", which doesn't really work;

    before the Fall, there couldn't be no choice nor decision; in fact god must of 'pushed' him/her to do it...the freedom of choice was born only after the lost innocence...and if snake fooled the Eve, it must be god himself that played the role of a snake...woman and snake are in fact the beginning of science...she was much smarter than Adam I guess...he was probably dumber and was accusing eve bla bla...anyway..we could analyse the story and see the inherent perversity up to the big daddy in the sky;)))

    comment on the link: I dislike this new atheist scientists who search for the religious patterns that we have in observing primates/monkeys etc...it's just stupid...why do you need to study a monkey to know something about human?---study humans and their socio-anthropological xy, if you want to know human psyche...if you want to know something about monkeys,,than study monkeys;)
  • John_Sceptic June 2011
    Posts: 30
    to friend: If they don't change the name, how about you starting a forum? I fully agree, it is extremely one-sided here, too many aggressive people in here attacking too readily. Or how about going to Rick Ross' website? Or the fake guru forum?
    You could start a thread and let us know, maybe make one in particular for our particular Swami. I would be interested in joining any discussions there.
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @John_E_Sceptic:

    Great idea :)
  • John_Sceptic June 2011
    Posts: 30
    Reply to @Roman: Mhhh. You're too smart for me, Sherlock Holmes. The FBI must have helped you. :-) John_E_Sceptic. You took the fun out of it now!
  • Tony June 2011
    Posts: 172
    Reply to @John_Sceptic: "...too many aggressive people in here attacking too readily."

    I really don't think this is fair. I have been looking at exchanges in this forum, and I find most people on Roman's side very mirror-like: if the other side comes friendly, presenting sincerely intelligent points they always get an equally friendly response. If, on the other hand, someone shows up all arrogant, oozing their pseudo-spiritual nonsense, dripping with vitriolic sarcasm, they get back the same treatment, and more. Just mirroring.

    Do not confuse disagreeing with attacking. The whole point of free speech is, literally, to permit all the things that we hate to hear, to be said. Agreeable speech requires no protection.
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @friend:

    Addressing the administrator of this forum, dear Roman: if you would truly like that more people take the opportunity to be involved in this discussion - people with a variety of opinions and beliefs, including supporters of this yoga group and its founder - I would say that the name of the forum makes it very repelling for some people to trust your motives and to join in the discussion, despite their wanting to.

    It says at the top of the page: “This forum does not endorse officially any of the views expressed by its users. It is a discussion about two sides of a coin.”
    I would actually say it is not *two* sides of a coin, but many many differing perspectives, as none of us is exactly like each other in our views or experiences, we share some views, we oppose others, we agree a little sometimes but not fully, or we completely don’t understand/agree, etc etc.

    The problem with that is that this forum is about sexual abuse of devotees by a master(s). My motives to start this forum were simple. I found out that some of my friends were sexually misused, abused, call it whichever way you like. When they’ve tried to bring some attention to it, they were discarded like piece of trash. Lies were told around about them, they were handled in very similar way like I was handled when I decided to leave the founder and therefore the yoga group (not the other way around). If you are calling yourself a “friend”, you are maybe one of my friends from past. Or not, I don’t know. But if you knew me you would know that I’ve always tried to help people, always have been there for them when they needed. And you would also know that I have some particular skills how to communicate with others. Some people here and elsewhere called my actions here manipulations. One of my skills is that I understand others quite well thanks to empathy and also ability to observe. I was always that way. Swamihood did not make me that way. What I was defined how I was as a swami. I don’t call it manipulation but at the end it is just semantics. I knew from the beginning that if you want people to start talking about very uncomfortable issues in their lives, you have to stir up the water. To provoke them little bit. Get them out of their comfort zone and face the reality. And we’ve started talking. You yourself admit that you’ve been reading this forum (and not the fake guru forum without help of any men :) Is it one sided? It is sided according people who come here and express themselves. Everybody can say what they want and everybody can expect rebuttal. It’s completely fair. Just read the rebuttals of the “other” side. Are those real arguments for you? Maybe, I don’t know. Maybe you have something more to say, you are mostly welcome. You’ve said that there are more than two sides to this “coin”. Maybe. There are always all shades of gray between black and white. But you cannot capture that with a one liner which the name for the forum is. This entire forum is about those shades of gray.

    Allow me to suggest that you just look at things from my perspective. I 100% positively know that those things happened. I actually know about much more things but am not allowed revealing them or don’t want to reveal them at this point yet. If you were in my position would you change the name to something not much saying, diluted, without any offensive language in order to get the image of “fair-mindedness”, “respectfulness” or “political correctness”? We had to change the name once already due to the actions of the founder and the yoga group. It is not going to happen again. If people want to talk about their experiences in some group and discuss pluses and minuses they can join on Facebook® or elsewhere. This forum is one sided in a sense that it is about the abuses of one particular master on their devotees. You are welcome to bring your perspective, your positive experiences and anything you would like to share with others on this subject. You can say that I am completely wrong and those who are against your guru are crazy and lunatics. That’s fine. But don’t forget that this forum is not really one sided. It is a forum. It’s not a monolog.

    That is all I can tell you at this point as an administrator of this forum. Thank you for talking to me and others,

  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] June 2011
    Posts: 0

    I I agree with John and Friend. This is one sided forum with very aggressive and offending answers from other side. It is stupid to say we will respect only „friendly, presenting sincerely intelligent points“ and on the other hand cheers all Pavitra or Ivan or Falsesvamiji posts. I read all posts (except some to long from you know who) and I can say that this was not how you treated even in your opinion „intelligent posts“. If somebody wrote some argument which is logical and possible, or it is ignored and empire people start writing long posts to go on far from that post or suddenly some of the empire girls write heart breaking story again or third option empire hits men start to offend this person. You can see that , it is rule . Of course if somebody use some sarcasm or irony or show even small emotion (remember we are hurt humans too, and not brainless, emotionless zombies) than he get answers „That is not how real devotee is behaving“ (it is so funny when you write that my dear, while you are not really example devotees) or he become a target of disgusting insults. This is reality.
    But, I agree with Roman, it is take it or leave it situation. If you like this forum stay, if not go, this simple. Same with man you dislike so much…take it or leave it ….we like it.
    I decide not to be insult any more, so goodby to all
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @member: -As i wrote before, if we are in danger of cognitive dissonantion,the treatment can be in three ways: one of them is selection from the new informations (conscious or subconscious) exactly as you did. There are a lot of different info and you choose just few of them which are compatible with you paradigma. But it is normal reaction, nothing against you, member. Thanks for your posts here.
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @member:
    Actually, the empire is Yoga Master's side. We are just vampires :)
  • VeritasVeritas June 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @member:
    Thanks for sharing your perception and your suggestions. I do undersand your point.
    You think that we are acting on the base of believing a lie. And we are wrong and
    accusing a saint of having done evil things. We are being rude and vulgar.
    Ok, now please, try to understand why we could be like this. Just because we are
    evil people?
    We do have access to information, that you might not have. You think
    they are fake. So please, just one example. What about the Cici conspiracy? This story
    has been sold right from the beginning, what about it now? I think nobody, who still got his two cents together, does belive it anymore. So it has turned out to be a plain propaganda lie.
    Doesn't that make you think? What if all, that is said about the "abuse scandal" by the
    officials is also just a lie? Would you understand us now?
  • Ivan June 2011
    Posts: 161
    Well, you have to understand that our objections to swAmi are extremely serious and some of us are convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that all allegations are true. As I don't believe in any kind of samadhi/spiritual perfection/god etc. for me even swAmi’s attitude and posing as perfect teacher on pedestal is simply wrong and abusive in nature. If we are right we have all right to be aggressive and angry because crimes he is accused of are much more serious that eventual crimes we may do to him on this forum... For me YIDL is a dangerous cult which isolates people from the outside world and entangles one to the point from where it is hard to run away. This is the case with the people in inside circles and karma yogis. In the outer circles there are people still maintaining healthy relationship with the world and they are still not in danger. Somehow I have a feeling that some YIDL defenders on the forum came mostly from these circles and I have no intentions of being aggressive or anything else towards them. Actually I find lanterna quite interesting :D
    Please don't be angry on people bashing someone you don't really know.
    Hey, check out this cartoon please:
    The nature and idea of this forum is, as I understand it (!), to offer the alternative to wrong and fabricated truth swAmi and fellowship is imposing for years using devotee’s care, emotions and material assets in order to establish personal cult (swAmi) and to make decent living out of it (some of the organizers and swamis of YIDL). On the other side we should offer some satisfaction for the disillusioned people and abused women piled up in previous times.
    Regards, Ivan Andrijanić
  • John_Sceptic June 2011
    Posts: 30
    Reply to @Roman: Mhhh. You're too smart for me, Sherlock Holmes. The FBI must have helped you. :-) John_E_Sceptic. You took the fun out of it now!
  • VeritasVeritas June 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @John_Sceptic:
    Nearly everybody knew.
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @John_Sceptic:
    Just read your posts. Nobody neads help with figuring it out. But anyway, you are welcome here or anywhere else. This is not about the "forum". It is about that what's in the title.
  • John_Sceptic June 2011
    Posts: 30
    Reply to @Roman: I was being sarcastic. :-) I am surprised it took you that long, I made it so easy for you!
    Anyhow, this is for Connex: Quote: "We ask for so long time not to make a cult of YIDL, but certain people won’t stop their behavior. They throw themselves at his feet and before the altar. No one forces them, on the contrary!"
    That is very incorrect: Two situations come to mind: One in Brisbane, people were standing in line, and SM walked along to greet people. Most fell to their knees and touched his feet (or kissed them, didn't look so closely). It was either 97 or 99. When he came to me, I just stood there and looked at him, I must have looked a bit bewildered, I'm sure I didn't look to happy. I can't stand that sort of stuff. Anyhow, Hariharanand was standing behind SM and motioned me to also get to my knees. If I wasn't so polite I would have told him to f#$%^ off. Because I'm polite I just ignored him and just stood there. SM gave me a smile. Can't remember if I smiled back.
    The second incident involved sitting in front of the altar with feet extended. I was told in a very serious tone, that one should not point the feet at SM's picture, or at him, if present. Big no, no!
    Actually, a third one, not so full-on was the idea that the bhajan book is sooo holy, that one can't just put it on the floor. First, you'd have to put a mat or cloth, then you place the book. Because it's sooo special. I would have agreed if the reason was to prevent it from getting dirty, but to treat the song book or the Lila Amrit as so holy, well, that didn't sit right with me at all.
  • pavitra June 2011
    Posts: 270
    Hi Member. I really don’t want you to leave. Don’t worry: popularity comes, popularity goes... and I know that I hurt you with my “small dirty talks”. Please ignore me. But I really think you should read some of the longer posts too (the most famous are batawe’s). They may be long and sometimes painful to follow for people with no philosophical background but there are worth the effort and for me as an ex-swAmi long years brain washed faithful disciple they are like a fresh breeze in the middle of the desert.
  • Tony June 2011
    Posts: 172
    @Veritas @Ivan @pavitra thank you for wonderfully proving my point.
  • VeritasVeritas June 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @Tony:
    Vice versa. Cheers m8.
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    and I say "Cheers to all on this forum" and let the "thing in itself" evolve accordingly to its own inherent truth, and we are making it with every step, pro or contra, every position is appreciated, as only dialectics give birth to something new;)...

    and thx Pavitra for strenghtening my philosophical 'ego'...;))))
  • pavitra June 2011
    Posts: 270
    you are wellcome batawe
    your posts are quite a meditation for me
    but as I can't change so quickly and I'm still "trained" to repress any form of ego... here we go: consider that we ex-yidl people are quite well brain-washed and not really a high reference...
  • Connex June 2011
    Posts: 49
    No one has ever claimed he was God except the incorrigible among the Bhaktas, and Sw. has not either.

    It is well known according to Vedas that a realized master is revered because Nirguna God can appear due to his presence - when and how is unpredictable and depends on the circumstances. He can not do anything about God if karma doesn’t allow or assist.

    As for me there’s no doubt that he always described himself only as the "mailman" by Mahaprabhuji.

    Who has ever done service with 'Naham karata' may understand this.

    We ask for so long time not to make a cult of YIDL, but certain people won’t stop their behavior. They throw themselves at his feet and before the altar. No one forces them, on the contrary! But what can we do ... we can’t prohibit it rigidly. That is the situation in almost every spiritual group with a master.

    Regarding Roman's 1 billion dollar question: Some of us are also familiar with his intimate physical characteristics, full of innocence of a child, for example during swimming events, private sauna or changing clothes after bathing in the Ganges. If Roman knows the answer to his question, he must have some time been close to him which is certainly no evidence for the allegations.

    Allow me to state something that may sound a bit rude (but isn’t meant to be) ... since the media interest for sex abuse set off in the late 90’s, it seems to me the accumulated frustration of all disillusionment in life is thrown on the subject. Because that is the kind of abuse recognized by public and gets the long desired attention to oppression and abuse that everyone has to face and suffer lifelong.

    People use people everyday, be it by passive aggressiveness, vanity, greed, dishonesty, dependence, helper syndrome, personality disorder - you name it …

    I think some “sex abusers” are accused innocent. The subject sometimes seems to me like a hysterical sideshow, where finally one can throw it all and start to make up mind and heart for the overdue fight against all kinds of oppression.

    Sw. never asked anybody to call him God. He never oppressed or abused anyone. Period. The answer to Romans 100% question is no evidence, because quite a few close Bhaktas can tell the right answer.
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @Connex: dear Connex,

    I think if swAmi wanted to stop that bowing etc., he could absolutely do it...
    several customs which are not even familiar to us westerners are efficiently maintained in yidl... so it would not be that difficult to eliminate this practice (and the associated view of him as god or something equivalent), which is not even “in our blood”... but, for example, the distribution of chocolate to children who again bow down because that's what they see others are doing strongly indicates that this custom is indeed encouraged, to say the least...

    and as regards private sauna and changing clothes situations... I would guess that female bhaktas could not have been present. or could they?
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Connex: "It is well known according to Vedas that a realized master is revered because Nirguna God can appear due to his presence"

    Isn't that just another way of saying that swAmi is Saguna God? So God in the form of man?

    "As for me there’s no doubt that he always described himself only as the "mailman" by Mahaprabhuji."

    So you say swAmi gets messages from Mahaprabhuji? So actually he's some sort of spiritual medium? I don't believe all this talking with the dead, but I'm sure it's a great way to manipulate people, he can claim that everything he says was told to him by Mahaprabhuji. Plus, he can attribute himself some of his divine radiance. Mahaprabhuji can never protest against this because he has no other channels, does he? So we never know if swAmi speaks the truth, we just have to trust him. I say, let's trust on ourselves and the divine within us, we don't need a middleman. And we don't need communication with the dead.
  • Durchanand June 2011
    Posts: 74
    Reply to @Connex:

    if he is only the postman - why does he not dress and behave like a postman?
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    ego is healthy if it's not a dumb ego (stubborn and violent, like some blind uncontrolled manifestation of destructiveness), otherwise, it's the thing that keeps us alive, and it's a sort of misunderstanding on the part of spiritual 'killers' who regard it as something that needs to be abolished or annuled; and many times even more bizarre ego can hide behind the angelic appearance;

    in any case, at least for one reason this 'angelic' surrendered non-ego spiritualists who talk about love and surrender (like cheap new age "god loves you" 'philosophy';), can be 'discarded' - they are so divinely boring!;)))

    yes YOU, particularly YOU, are chosen and HE loves YOU!, isn't that great?,

    ego: yes, it is; god really loves ME, I am special, oh Lord what a blessing... and I will surrender unto Thee o Lord...crush my ego o Lord, Thy Will be done...

    god: it is already Done my child, can't you see it?;

    ego: no Lord, show me the way;

    god: obey my child and you'll know the Truth;

    ego: yes O Lord, I am yours, and what should I do now?

    god: you should do 27 pushups and then chant 3000 times "I love you my lord"

    ego: ok, will I get any present after that?

    god: yes, you will go to heaven

    ego: but I want to be enlightened!

    god: only ones without ego can get enlightened!

    ego: but if I don't have any ego, how can I want or praise you or ask for some strawberry ice-cream, in your name of course, o Lord...

    god: strawberry ice-cream?, do you have any?...

    ego: yes, in the refrigerator...

    god: can I have some?

    ego: but it's only little left and I promised to invite my neighbour, and if I give it to you then my neighbour will be displeased...

    god: I am your neighbour, by eating your ice-cream your neighbour will eat it too...

    ego: ok then, but when neighbour comes for a cup of ice-cream I hope you will do a miracle and materialize one in my refrigerator

    god: yes,,just give me ice-cream...

    ego: I love you god

    god: me too

    ego: bon apetit

    god: don't tell the saints I ate the ice-cream, ok?

    ego: ok, but promise I'll get enlightened

    god: sure will...and next time buy some chocolate too...

    to be continued....;)))
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @batawe: :D :D :D :D :D
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