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Don´t ignore not everybody believes
  • joyriver May 2011
    Posts: 101
    Reply to @baremuenze: I understand the situation you are in with your family. I also had the same problems with my family. But they left me alone and did not bother me anymore, when they realized, I was doing fine in my life even if i was in yoga organization, I was being responsible and independent and since I am a very brave person, I also was always succesful at my job. So they have no problem with that any more.
    But sicne I realized what happenned in this same yidl organization and left it, I feel greater peace, because now all my feelings and intuitions make sens. And I have that inner peace which I could never have before. Just the opposite from you. See, we are all so different. And my experience doesn't match yours.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    @joyriver @ barmuenze:

    Joyriver, you are speaking about how you found a partner and created new life with him, have kids, it’s not easy but it is the everyday life full of incredible “lightness and heaviness of being” (my apologies, Mr. Kundera). But can you imagine that some other woman has not decided to do that? That she’s got the only love, lover and that’s how it ends for her. There are no words which can change her mind, not catastrophes which will scare her. She is woman in love. As many other women in love to the wrong guy. My mother was woman in love to the wrong guy and it affected lives of all of us involved for the rest of our lives.

    Who knows how it would have turned out to be, baremuenze, if you did find somebody like Joyriver did. It’s been many years invested in a (wrong) guy and every woman knows that feeling just by intuition. I wish you from the bottom of my heart that you will find that peace you’ve been talking about.
  • baremuenzebaremuenze May 2011
    Posts: 251
    Reply to @Roman:

    Dear Roman, dear Readership

    thx for your posts. I have already said I have found my inner peace. We have different perceptions. Sorry, but my time is limited.

    I hope I could domonstrate, that not everybody leave swAmi because of some stories which are coming up. This would be very curious, because there were always some people who tried to warp s. o. away from the path with swAmi and there will always be people, who will try it. Nothing suprising. Nothing suprising that there are a lot of questions and doubts - there were always some unacknowledged questions, doubts and dissapointment.

    I don´t know if the stories are true or not, but till now I didn´t get any clear evidence or evidence and I suspect, that even in future I won´t get any.

    Speculating and discussing is a bottomless pit.

    I hope you will also find your inner peace. My heart is with swAmi.

    All the best
  • Shivashakti May 2011
    Posts: 75
    For everyone reading this and not believing. Ask yourself if there are women in your local town who use to be close to swAmi who have now left and disappeared, did anyone ask them why? Or was it that usually story of no compassion in yidl, it must be their fault, they are crazy.. Perhaps you should go and ask there story.. ??

    Just keep your eyes open. Look for the Truth. Even if it is hard to digest..

    I have been dedicated to swAmi for 12 years, and been serving him and YIDL for this whole time with the good intention of serving guru and ashram, helping people and as a way to gain spiritual development.

    When I heard about these allegations I was in disbelief and denial. I thought, How can they possibly be true? he is old, and busy, and always has lots of people around him But I thought I want to know the Truth. Thats the most important thing to me. I want to know the Truth, more than I don't want it to be true.

    So I investigated, and its when you speak to the girls or hear from people you trust that you start to realise that it is true.

    People i trust, who have no reason to lie, have first hand accounts of women who have had sexual relations with swAmi. One of them, recently found out his ex-wife was with swAmi before they were married. These stories are kept silent. Why not? some of them are married with children and don't want to bring up the past, some still love swAmi and don't want to damage him, others are afraid that no one will listen to them or believe them, some have been scared into silence by threats and manipulation, and others don't want to lose their yoga friends. The truth is, if i had been told about this before I would not have believed it. I am sorry that I would not have believed the truth because i wanted my master to be perfect. I am ready to listen now.
    Lets not keep it silent any longer...

    In the end, the guru-disciple relationship should not involve sexual relations. And i have heard enough stories, from people within YIDL who have had first hand accounts, to believe swAmi has had lots of women over the last 30 years.

    Do what want our Self-Realisation so selfishly that we are willing to ignore our gurus abuse of power and trust?
  • Tony May 2011
    Posts: 172
    I, sadly, have to agree with you. The true hardened followers will never be swayed by a forum like this. People who believe in supernatural miracles but refuse to believe the most natural and most ordinary of all things: that a man would lust after a woman and act on his lust, simply because he can.

    But what do you suggest that we do? Should we just give up?

    What should good people do when facing something they perceive as a horrible abuse of trust, as something profoundly wrong? When facing something they want stopped, or at least weakened, or ridiculed. Should they do nothing, because any action is probably futile? Should people not at least try to fight for what they believe is right?

    Some people may believe a formal legal action is the best solution, could be I don't know. We here tend to believe having an open forum online where people get to express themselves openly, issues will come out, all this may help. If we ever come up with a better idea we will implement it.
  • mangal May 2011
    Posts: 489
    What is really depresive for us who regard themselves still beeing "in game" is total informational vacuum-official site regards as the most interesting thing of last days: samadhi of some monkey in Khatu.....felowship is maybe on holiday....
  • susieagain May 2011
    Posts: 3
    Hey all you guys, one thing stands out and that's soooooo much negativity.
    i agree and maybe we are all just brainwashed.

    but what about one thing. i just dont get that such a highly evolved soul could abuse women, i mean that's really bad stuff and it's just not reasonable to insist that swAmi can do that. Sex maybe but not abuse, that must be in the eyes of the beholder, what are they holding onto from the past that makes them so fearful of such a sacred thing to most people in most relationships?

    i mean i'm not saying either way but sex is a sacred act, and why would a Guru make it anything other than that. Maybe the girls just don't understand what love is all about and misconstrued something that didn't even happen?

    i myself have been really upset when i felt a man come to close to me or touch me, even on the arm as a gesture of friendship, until i worked out how up tight i was about men and what they want, and that was only because i was abused as a teenager, it took me a long time to get over it and people like swAmi have helped.

    i know a lot of young girls around Him and women too and they don't have any stories like the ones written here, and they are really great people, so where are all these differences coming from? Are they us or Him
  • Ivan May 2011
    Posts: 161
    Well all the negativity is coming from a firm conviction that swAmi is not a highly evolved soul but a crook. The main point is that some of us here think that swAmi is using his godlike position to have sex, fame and luxuries. On the other side I suppose that he isn’t just an ordinary con-man but a man who is assured in himself his mission. Only without a firm establishment in self-realization (in my opinion there is no such thing) one is liable to slips, and one slip after another entangles man in a net of lies and abuse. He is a man of flesh and blood and it is necessary to observe him like this. Otherwise one gives him right to endless power.
  • baremuenzebaremuenze May 2011
    Posts: 251
    Reply to @Tony:

    Dear Tony,

    just a few words. I just tried to explain to you my view of point and behaviour, the reasons for it and mentioned some simple examples, why this all confirm the coherency of my view of life.

    I think, I am not the only one, who is handling this toppic in this way. Maybe it can help you to find a better way.

    So, if it´s your intention to help and warn the people, then you will find a better way with Gods blessing, still more you have to find a better way to reach the called aim to help, protect and warn the people otherwise nothing will change respectively future "victims" won´t have any chance...(= they already tried in past - what nonsense stories...)

    I won´t add anything anymore.

    All the best
  • Tony May 2011
    Posts: 172
    Reply to @susieagain: I guess you should ask, why so many of us are so negative towards him? It does not make sense, does it, if he is so amazing, everybody should love him. So why don't we? I hope most of us sound like reasonable intelligent people, so we must have some good reasons to be like this. I think that these pages document these reasons rather accurately.

    I think that swAmi was simply very arrogant and could not possibly imagine that someone would not want to have sex with him. If people touch your feet all day long, nobody ever dares to argue with you on anything, and thousands of people have your photographs hung around their houses, no real feedback, ever, you will lose touch with reality. I do not think he intentionally hurt anyone. He just does not care. He is not even aware how hurtful it might have been. I think that he had been so over-worshipped for so long that eventually he lost any empathy, any compassion.

    If you are a young girl and you go backstage after a rock concert, you should not expect that Robert Plant will be discussing with you the fine points of postmodernist architecture. You know, if he picks you, you went there to have sex. No surprises, it's open politics.

    If, on the other hand, you enter late night your guru's bedroom, you are expecting something spiritual, something sacred, so you may get seriously traumatized when you find out that all your beloved spiritual master actually wants is to get head...
  • Tony May 2011
    Posts: 172
    Reply to @Ivan: Spot on.
  • baremuenzebaremuenze May 2011
    Posts: 251
    Reply to @zazaza:

    Dear zazaza,

    in my opinion life is made to enjoy and to be happy and to keep this feelings even in difficult circumstances and to understand for example the elements of cruelness instead of beeing dissapointed or angry on someone or s. th. like this.

    Eternal inner peace or eternal inward peace is compared to freedom and happiness on higher level. So if someone reaches the level of eternal inward peace, he won´t loose it anymore, even in difficult circumstances he will remain in it and in the level of higher happiness. Nothing can´t change it.

    And there are many many people who can´t understand human beings, which don´t loose their inner peace, even in cruelest times - in addition to it people feel disturbed, violated or get the opinion, that these human beings don´t understand anything, also they don´t have any sympathy.
    Often the people try to put these human beings down on the peoples´ level, because the behaviour of the human beings doesn´t fit in their coherently view of life - it´s something totaly different to what they experienced in their life - still more, when they can´t reach their aim "to put them down on their own level", they get distance to these "strange human beings" or maybe they try to harm them - and then they say "I did it, because I sorrowed for you. I love you." (That´s an absolut scream.)

    God´s love is unconditional, what means love is no contract which implies "I love you only to the limited extent - if you don´t harm neither me, nor your people and environment around you and additional to it, when you are always helpful etc.-" So God´s love is no contract, but love of not enlightened human beings is almost always conditional. It´s hard to believe that God accepts also the cruelest human beings. So Got doesn´t make any difference between rapists and guardian. This point is too hard to believe and pains, people lust for justice and revenge, which we call "karma".
    It´s difficult to forgive so called enemies and pray for them. Beyond that it´s difficult to love them or accept that you and "your enemy" are one unity. So that what your enemy is doing, that´s you...so the responsibility of your "enemie´s" acting is also your own responsibility - because you are your "enemy". Because we are all created from the same stuff - stuff which is called "God, Energy..."

    So called "enemys" are part of God´s creation. Refusing them means refusing ourselves (jivatma - atma). If God would refuse them, it would mean God would refuse Godself.

    So I think this is a very important fact of liberty.

    Have a look on the world with it´s penal system, destruction, pollution, hate and so on. What does it help? Instead of less crime or increasing protection environment, greed and cruelness increase. Have a look at the system, which "rational or thinking people" established, affirm and support.

    Often we can´t change it, also we can´t imagine the enormity and perversity of it. Should we ignore it? First, we have to accept and understand that there is just the possibility of cruelness, sorrow, harm, fear etc. and why we voluntery choose it sometimes.

    I think it doesn´t help anyone loosing inner peace and happiness instead of boost it. It doesn´t help to become angry or sad and immerse into the level of these people who seed barbarism.

    "World peace must develop out of inner peace".

    There is the posibility of choice regarding feelings, acting and so on. It´s a question of what you want to be and what you want to seed - it´s up to you ;).

    Some people enjoy it to be angry, to fight, to help - other people enjoy not to care - again other people enjoy to be unhappy or to be harmed. That´s life and individuality (jivatma - atma). Some people find their freedom in their cruelest hour, other people can´t even endure freedom, so they create their own bondage or put themselves again and again in circumstances which mean bondage. (Awareness - Unconscious)

    Some people like children don´t ask for violance, but they are abused - abuses and cruelity increase instead of becoming less and there are people who support it, thereover affirm it. There is the posibility to support increasing barbarousness, so just understand why. And if you want to conduce peace and freedom for everyone:

    "World peace must develop out of inner peace".

    When you decide to fight, protect, help - keep your peace, freedom, happiness and satisfaction and try to increase this elements in jivatmas around you. Peace and healing grow up. Some people don´t want a piece of your inner peace, help, protection - understand it and stay on your way. Some don´t feel well, when they are healthy or everthing is ok. There will be always people who won´t feel well, if everything is ok and they will seed negativity again and again - you can´t change it, but maybe from time to time you can set a small light in dark times.

    "World peace must develop out of inner peace".

    (By the way: We are living in a world of relations and we only experienced what is good, because we experienced all, what is not good. Enlightenment means to make no differences between them. Good and bad is one and the same.)
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @baremuenze:
    Baremuenze's comment is new but kind of lost in the tree structure reply to @zazaza on the first page of this thread.
    My response:

    You are speaking of absolute happiness being the even-minded state of human consciousness, regardless what the external circumstances are. Up to certain degree I agree with you. The more cool headed you are, the less panicky you are and many times you can make the right decisions based on your state of mind. Notice that I use words many times, up to certain degree etc. I (speaking just for myself) do not agree with the absolute implication of your theory. Now I don’t want to offend anybody, I am using the examples just to illustrate my point.

    If nations did not join against Hitler, world would be much different, my German would probably be much better and I would be actually the privileged one because one of my grandmas was German. But many other people would not be humans. They would be just carcasses in mass graves.

    If Lincoln did not try to free slaves in the US, I would not have African Americans friends, maybe I would be again the privileged one because I am white and I could have a slave, but those who are humans like me, just look different, may be much brighter than me, may have much more potential than me, the looser ex-swami, would be living life of misery and oppression.

    I could go on and on. But something struck me in your comment. The way you are speaking about those of you “enlightened” compared to “those people”. I remember well that set of mind how we were told that nobody will understand us but we are something different, we know something what no one else does, that we are elite. (Batawe, my friend, please skip Nietzsche follow up here this time if you can because I think that would really dilute the point I am trying to make. But again, feel free to follow your heart :) We know better than our parents did and I could agree with that wholeheartedly. We know better than those people behind the wall (I remember a video satsang from Vep seminar where these kind of comments were made by swAmi). And you know, everybody likes to think of themselves as something special. So I loved to agree with that (look at those ignorant people, how they go around their own lives without knowing they are going to fry in hell of re-birth again and again.) I was well programmed to go out and spread the YIDL gospel. And so I did. It took lot of work, not just mine, but thanks to that YIDL can put today in the books real US ashrams names and addresses, not just some immigrant's apartments/houses without any real classes and yoga activities. I was very busy, but as many other disciples I would get up before 4 am to do my practice and also I would always take sometimes longer time for practice, meditating for days without moving, eating, drinking. There are some people who know about this, I am not making it up. Somebody here (I thing Ann) asked me about my spiritual experiences. Petr talks about Samadhi. Well, let say that I had some experiences of Samadhi. I could control my heartbeat, I could go without food for long time. I could stop my breath for 3 and even more minutes without feeling any discomfort. After I’ve realized that mantra was a distraction at certain level, I would use just concentration on my breath and then pulse and then other appearing reactions of my inner world that I would get through all this into Peace. Absolute peace where nothing existed. Everything was one and nothing really mattered. No good, no bad, no my body, mind, forget about names or gurus. I was dead. The only difference between being really dead and this state was that somehow I knew about it. The electro-chemical reactions of my brain have not ceased to exist completely. It’s a technique. It won’t make you richer or more beautiful, it does not prove that God is or not. It’s just an experience, same like pumping your heart faster or slower. It still can kill you if you do it and don’t know what you are doing (as it almost happened to me after I somehow unintentionally discovered how to do it the first time). Because I wasn’t dead, it didn’t last forever, I even don’t know for how long, it could have been seconds, minutes, hours. It’s not important. Because I wasn’t dead, it was deeply ingrained in my memory and became deeper and deeper ingrained when I repeated that experience. And that was the time when I started to look at things around me little bit differently. All of a sudden I knew I wasn’t special, all of a sudden I knew we all are in it together, I did not know it just by my mind, I knew it by my experience. I saw my master doing things I did not agree with, same as before. But I could not bring myself anymore to find any kind of justification in the name of better good, tapasya, bhakti or whatever. All of a sudden I saw a greedy, angry and abusive man in orange clad. I felt dead in my heart all of a sudden, my whole world collapsed. I was not strong enough at that time to be Lincoln or anti-Hitler coalition. I was just my petty disgusted self and I needed to go out. It is not so easy for 45 years old man to start a new life. You are a looser by default at that point (please, spare me of “you are not a looser, you are atma… and whatever stuff”). I still will take that hundred times over being “in my own little peace” while I am cause of suffering of others. You are right, there will always be things around us which are terrible, not right, unjust and we cannot do much about it. But we should not be causing them. You have been repeating your master’s mantra:

    "World peace must develop out of inner peace". Sounds good, but what does it mean? It’s just a sound bite. We could say too:

    “World justice and peace must develop out of our living example.”

    Anyway, what I am trying to say is that there is a limit to being cool or even headed. That limit is called humanity.
  • PallasAthene May 2011
    Posts: 246

    It sounds horrible to me that you should be a loser because you took the decision to leave a hermeneutic system. You would lose a lot of time and energy staying longer undesired. What a big joke, that the institutions of the religious or philosophic systems are not even better than any big company in the world. More to say that someone should be an underdog is a lack of any knowledge about life. There is no wisdom, only hierarchy. When I am trying to level someone down to the bottom of such hierarchy, I persue an agenda, the agenda that your words seems less reliable to the audience. So what.
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    Thank you Roman. I hope that baremuenze will have enough self-confidence to present his own direct experiences in such an honest and humble way. I came to similar conclusions. If the state of enlightment descibed by baremuenze can be achieved, I'm ready for it. I have achieved my inner peace too. And when something is upsetting or exciting me I'm using the precious yoga technics to calm down. It works. But I firmly believe that our playground is the actual world. The state of inner peace helps me to better understand what is going on and focus myself on the possible solutions and act accordingly. Baremuenze, you obviousely achieved some higher state of consciousness and I invite you to help us to understand better why we are all so upset and sad about the fact that swAmi had sexual intercourses with many young ladies while preaching exactly the same stuff you descibed. Do you think that giving him a bl...job was a technique to achieve this higher inner peace?
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    someone told me to see swAmi slapping a woman on the face in front of a lot of people during a kumbha mela or in a similar setting (allegedly because she got lost and got into some trouble)...
    if an "ordinary" person slaps someone on the face in a similar (or even a different) situation I still don't agree but I say okaaay, he/she couldn't control himself/herself but hopefully noone is much more hurt than visible to the eye and it will pass... but if an allegedly enlightened master does that... for me, it's much worse... some may say that it's lila or anything equivalent... in my opinion, in that case anyone slapping anyone on the face is just part of the divine play (lila is ultimately all-inclusive)... if, on the contrary, we see it more or less as a simple slap then I am not really happy to hear that this was the best and wisest thing an allegedly enlightened master could do in that situation...
  • pandora May 2011
    Posts: 10
    Reply to @someonefromhungary: i find that impossible to beleive, do you have it on camera? we can go on and on saying things about others as much as we want, but we are the fools either making this stuff up or even better believing in our own lies. Lets stick to the truth here brother and find something else to do once the stories run out.
  • pandora May 2011
    Posts: 10
    Reply to @pavitra: You are really a negative lady, and your language is foul. i wonder how people respond to you in your daily 'playground'?
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    dear pandora,

    I do not have it on camera and I wasn't there. as I said, I was only told about it by someone who said to have seen it. in fact, when this person told me about this he/she did not seem to mean that swAmi was doing something particularly wrong. for him/her, it was much more acceptable than for me. I will ask this person if he/she would be willing to write it down here. but I guess I won't be able to present much more proof than that*. as is unfortunately quite usual in life... most of the times there are no cameras, no witnesses even... only one's words against someone else's words... and everyone's decision on who and what to believe... what to do? should we say nothing just because all our experiences and memories are inherently incomplete and subjective?

    your sister :)

    * or other witnesses of this slap may show up. as I said, there were allegedly quite a few people there.
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    dear pandora,

    and you see... this is why I wish so much that all those who are interested could meet face to face... so that you could have a more complete picture of me, of why I would say this or that... so that you can make your decision whether to believe me or not on a more detailed basis... in fact, I sometimes wish there was a zip on my soul so that anyone interested could check it out for themselves in a minute or so :)

    and in fact, I share your problem on many issues: should I belive this or not?

    and in fact, I still maintain the presumption of innocence related to (almost) every issues I (can) have no direct experience with, even if it means temporarily maintaining conflicting truths in myself...

    but even if swAmi is perfectly innocent and all the accusations are false... I do not agree with the way the whole issue is handled by him, by the official yidl organisation and, consequently, by a lot of people within yidl... the only news I got "officially" was that there is a smear campaign... and nothing else. not even some more simple facts about which there is no disagreement I guess. (for example, the fact that Swami Chidanand and a few hundred other disciples have left...) and one of the main messages is to close eyes and ears (meaning we shouldn't communicate with people who were our gurubrothers/sisters yesterday). I do not like it, either. we should become vivekis, shouldn't we? how to become viveki if we do not open the box labelled "smear campaign" and analyse its contents for ourselves? we have to practice viveka to develop it.

    all the best to you,
    your sister
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    Yes Pandora I'm a negative and very bad person if you like or need to judge me. It doesn't change the fact that one of my best friends was sexually abused by swAmi. She told me and I believe her. It doesn't change the fact that these revelations helped me to understand that I was myself manipulated by him in the name of spirituality. I'm here to understand how ugly things like these can happen, to find and give help and support from and to people that had similar experiences. I'm welcoming you to join the discussion. Could I be more positive?
  • joyriver May 2011
    Posts: 101
    Reply to @pandora: Are you insisting on calling us all liars? what makes you so sure, we are making this stuff up? How come you are so quick in making such accusations?
  • baremuenzebaremuenze May 2011
    Posts: 251
    Reply to @Roman:

    Dear Roman,

    thx for your post, I like it.

    I don´t have much knowledge about swAmis comments, but I am bothering myself with philosophical topics since I was a child. Injustice always hurt me; often I was sad and angry. I was forced to find a way to keep my health and at the same time to socialize myself.

    You are totally right with your sentence about humanity. I will give you an example of my life.

    Regarding Hitler I think Sophie Scholl didn´t have any inner peace if she wouldn´t fight for justice and freedom. Without barbarism caretaker and peace activists wouldn´t be needed. There is the possibility of cruelness. So it´s up on everybody how to score the situation.
    Regarding Lincoln – the war was started because of some economic dependence – slavery was just make-believe --> but finally from s. th. bad increased s. th. good.
    I would like to repeat some points:

    We live in a world of relations, so we adept what is well, because we adept what is not well. Some people need the cruelness before their eyes to recognize what they don´t want to be, to do etc. so that they finally find out, what they want to be, to do etc. “Sometimes it is necessary to go the wrong way to recognize, which is the right way.” (Wrong and right have always to be seen in relation to the things.)

    Hitler represented the spirit of the age in the past – but don´t forget that even later and today there are more barbarously actions conducted by humans. We can´t even imagine them. Again it´s up to ourselves to score and deal with circumstances.

    I think Hilter – creation of Energy/God or however you call it – was affirmed by Energy/God, otherwise he wouldn´t be created. So if God/Energy dismissed Hitler, God/Energy would dismiss itself. (Sorry for repeating).

    pavitra asked me for an example and I want to demonstrate one of my life:

    I am working with children of difficult circumstances. If every story would touch me I already would hung up myself, but I found another way to handle the situation.

    Parents often treat their children in an unacceptable way, it hurts, but I can´t prevent this. “It´s not my responsibility.” I am blocked by instructions and also by the will of the persons, who are caught in their circumstances. Some even don´t believe that they are worthy to be loved or to be free. It´s very very complicated to deal with such things. You open some options for them but they are afraid of grabbing their luck by the scruff of its neck. In addition to that some are putting themselves down again and again.
    Now you can add I am too self - confident to decide for others what could help them or to judge about their luck or misfortune. Maybe I am always wrong and this job doesn´t fit to me. I am not able to rule about someone´s luck, but I can establish some opportunities, but for some every opportunity is no choice.
    Anyway there have to be a beginning.

    You can always be wrong in your acting, even if it comes from bottom of your heart with deepest good will.

    If parents are not ok you can suppose that their children also won´t be ok regarding psyche and physique. The numbers of psychiatric patients increase, the number of illnesses and the number of illnesses of caretaker. Unfortunately I can´t prevent this, I can accept it or not, but it´s easier to accept it and to understand why there is even the possibility of illness, cruelness etc. If you don´t find any way to protect yourself you won´t be able to help others anymore. So I have to keep and increase my inner peace, happiness and humor to keep my health, otherwise I couldn´t do my job anymore and help other people. Probably my role would change in opposite –maybe caught circumstances.

    There are always two sides of the same coin and from difficult circumstances there is the chance to develop your soul, your mind, your understanding, your health. So children from difficult familiar circumstances have the chance to develop their health regarding body and mind, even they don´t have got the requirement.

    It is possible to set some light into the people around you. Most of the time children repeat your behavior (even if they dislike you) and also the people around you do the same sometimes.

    I was working with prisoners, handicapped children and adults, old and helpless people. Some time I was also working for the red cross. Now I am working with "usual" children - but their circumstances are not usual - a lot of them are taking medicine (that´s our spirit of age). I had to learn to accept it.

    And in my own way I can say I love troubles, because without troubles I wouldn´t have the possibility to follow my inner call, to stabilize my understanding and inner peace. So my inner peace depends on difficult circumstances from others (maybe this seems unacceptable – but it´s up to me to handle with the possibility of cruelness.) The “higher” inner peace doesn´t need this – but to reach this, you know it well, it is a long way and I am not enlightened. Enlightened people aren´t in need any more to reach inward peace – they just have it and when they are acting, they stay in happiness on higher level. So they are acting in this world without losing their peace. Cruelness don´t touch them anymore – not because of missing empathy or sympathy. I think many many people aren´t prepared for peace/inner peace/happiness on higher level and they couldn´t stand it. It would make them ill - such a paradoxie: they would become mortal ill in abesence of illness - regarding to their level of awareness.

    But I have to add that my love to work with troubled persons became less and I am changing my way in moment. Now my acting depends on rules, which some “unspiritual” and “thinking” people created. I recognized that there is a better way to help. So in moment I am in process of changes. For me it is not logical that the numbers of institutions increase, while the illnesses of people rise steadily.

    I also have got my own story and it was up to me to handle like the most people expect it from me

    (not to forgive, but to be injured a whole life, although after a while not suffering anymore and trying to be happy and when I am really happy, then they remark, that I can´t be happy, because of my story…- and because of my happiness they do not understand, they try hard to make me unhappy to get their view of point confirmed…-that´s a big joke – and sometimes it´s wiser not to talk about personally difficulty.)

    or do it like it feels right for me. Forgiveness, Love and Thankfulness instead of suffer, revenge, punishment. I can´t force anybody to go my way but I can be a pattern.

    Dear pavitra,

    in your last point I don´t agree with you, because I don´t believe the stories. But anyhow I will try answering your question. You are sad about it because you decided to be sad about it – such simple. It´s up to you how to handle the situation.

    For you the stories are verified and if you would keep your happiness and unconditional trust - this wouldn´t be acceptable concerning your society around you. In such situations I am looking on our lifeworld - taking a deep look - taking a deep breath - and then I try to score the situation again and try to understand....

    Already the creation of such stories “can” lead to freedom, wisdom and inner peace.

    What means unconditional love and trust to God, when God doesn´t avoid horrible things? Should we lose them or especially in hard times stabilize them? So you can give yourself an answer. It´s a provocative theory. I don´t want to hurt s. o. with my words and I am sorry, if my answer hurts.
  • baremuenzebaremuenze May 2011
    Posts: 251
    Reply to @baremuenze:

    I have to add one more thing.

    My work with these children of difficult circumstances teached me that often children create their own stories, which are not true. They are just creating, not lying. I have to take every story serious, but not because of their index, but rather of their problems, which lead them to tell such created stories - the stories are just an express of their violence and pain. Sometimes their view of things don´t correspond with facts. (10 - 15 years old children)

    A while ago (I was 20/21) I had a relationship with a man, whom was diagnosed "Pseudologia phantastica". This is a phenomen, which leads s. o. to lie with the aim of recognition. It took a long time, before I recognized it through fortuity. You see, he was an ill man with talent to convince. When I tried to tell it to my/his friends, they didn´t believe me a long time. It was very very hard to see, you tell the truth, but nobody believe you. My comments weren´t accepted and they got distance to me until they had to do an equal experience like I made.

    So I repeat my point of view: Till now I didn´t get any evidence, I can´t imagine that swAmi is able to harm someone and on the basis of my experience, I don´t believe these stories about abuse in internet.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @baremuenze:
    As I’ve said, up to the certain point it is good and desirable to be even (cool) headed to manage calamities (i.e. situations arising from your job) in proper and professional way. Having said that, there is a limit. Let me share another story with you. This feels like we are getting to know each other and that was also one of the reasons for starting this forum :)
    In the elementary school I had a friend, lets call him Jan (not his real name). He was one of my many other friends, you know kids. He always had problems with studies. He probably would have fit into the ADHD, special needs child category, possibly you would meet him at your line of work if you happened to live and work in Prague at that time. I knew his whole family. I was visiting with him a lot, his mom would always make some snack for all of us kids running around thru their spacious apartment. Then always, when the day was coming to end and we had to leave, this big dark cloud somehow appeared over the faces of Jan, his younger sister and their loving mother. I always felt weird and very uncomfortable. Once I’ve stayed little longer because my mom was late from work and she asked Jan’s mom to keep eye on me, because they knew each other well. Then eventually Jan’s father came home. I knew him just from meeting him few times on the street, never really close enough. He was acting funny, was very loud and all of a sudden got really upset. I was growing up without father so I didn’t really know what it means when a grown drunk man takes of his leather belt and starts indiscriminately beating 8 years old son. And then his 6 years old sister and then the mother too. I was scared to death, thinking, I’m gonna be the next. I ran out home and fell sick. I remembered my father as drunk and loud, before my mother divorced him, but he never hit me, that’s probably the only good thing I can say about him. I got disciplined by my mother many times but that was in the realm of co-dependency we had. I wasn’t easy child either. This was different. When I came back to school, now I knew why Jan had lot of times black eye, bruises on different parts of his body and why the teachers were acting awkward around him. We were pretty close friends until I went to different high school and things did not change during that time. He was a smart kid (eventually finished college, that’s all I know) but teachers didn’t like him. They did not know what to do. His father was well educated, possibly in the Party and it was that kind of culture. Shut up, you can’t do anything, men drink and beat their children and wives. I am sure that the father wanted his son to also be well educated and therefore any “F” grade had to be corrected with the belt. I met him after many years when visiting my mother. I’ve stopped at the local pub and we talked. His father was there too, totally drunk. Jan didn’t pay any attention to him. He was tall, strong, very handsome young man. He looked together and happy. I could not ignore the presence of his father; he still evoked this chilling in my spine effect even after all those years. I asked Jan about his dad. How did it end, the abuse? “I beat the crap out of the old bastard one day and it was over. Cheers.”

    You are right. You need to protect yourself from deep end of somebody’s else’s trauma. We cannot take on all suffering in the world. But I still like to think that my friendship with him somehow helped him at least sometimes sooth his wounds, that our running around and laughing was taking away the images of his father with belt from his scared mind. I do understand your reasoning and you have full right to have it. I disagree. I do not believe in god or overreaching principle managing everything in mysterious ways. I believe in supernova. I believe in entropy. I believe in cycles of time being just revolutions of the energy how we perceive them. I don’t believe in divine plans. They really don’t have any credibility after you look at the obvious poor execution of this so called “intelligent design”.

    BTW, Lincoln was deeply convinced that slavery needs to be abolished. There, of course, were economic and other reasons involved in the American civil war, but if he did not have this conviction in his heart, the outcome could have been much different. Also, I don’t think, that Hitler being born and becoming what he was, was that necessary for some people to become peace activists. I know that history is complicated, gets manipulated by those who comment on it and teach it, of course. But certain pictures are undeniable. One cannot change the facts. This I consider really the weakest points of your argument, but again, you have total right to have it. I just don’t buy this above everything and nobody can really comprehend kind of stuff. As somebody have mentioned here before: If it’s like that then what? We won’t be able to comprehend anyway. Neither will you. Or are you that above everything fully realized un-human being? In that case you’ve proved your point and so have we.
  • baremuenzebaremuenze May 2011
    Posts: 251
    Reply to @Roman:


    Through my stories, I learned what forgiveness really means. I learned to love and trust at the same time, when I lost my love and trust. It was really painfully to recognize, that some people lust for situations in which they are dissed and treated in a really cruel way. This I had to understand and it was hard for me to accept.
    So sometimes there are limits of acting in life as human being. I agree with you. But for me today it wouldn´t be an option to beat someone, maybe I have lost my enthusiasm. I am satisfied, when I find a peaceful way to handle difficult situations. This is a question of “what you want to be, how you want to act, which world you want to create”. But you are right. I am also not always calm, but in the main time of life since I have learned. It doesn´t make me facilitate to snap - quite contrary to. Most of the times I can recognize the reasons for being unbalancend and agressive and then I am returning to myself.

    Edit --> Added: My itention for peaceful acting and thinking is not only my own protection, but rather a principle, a lifestyle, which I want to spread and submit for other people. There are situations, which seems to be very worthless for peace, although for long term ahimsa is the highest principle, even yourself is attacked. I don´t appeal to let someone allow everthing to do...
    ...some want to have a peaceful life, others want to have a wild life ;).

    It would be a pity if we wouldn´t have select options. Some scientists mentioned that we are not free in our acting and thinking and I agree with that point. But I think when we are aware of it we can manipulate ourselves to get the aims we wish to have. We can manipulate our thoughts with concentration and be sure, our thoughts and acts are manipulated till that time we were born. So it´s not only a question of manipulation, it is also a question from what do you wish to reach/to be (this, what you want to be - is also a unfree thought/acting according to scients perceptions ;)). Our imaginative power is the strongest power, which can lead us to our intentions – even if imagination can lead us to confusion.

    We are living in a world of relations. And with following point you don´t agree, that´s ok: “Sometimes people have to experience cruel things to recognize what they don´t want to have. But most of the times when cruelness is seed, it increases instead of awaking up people. They have the cruelness in front of their eyes and don´t deal in a different way. But it can also lead to consciousness.” There is a sense behind relations and differences.

    Maybe, do you know the book “Conversations With God” from Neale Donald Walsch?
  • PallasAthene May 2011
    Posts: 246
    "Each student must be encouraged to take responsible measures to confront teachers with unethical aspects of their conduct. If the teacher shows no sign of reform, students should not hesitate to publicize any unethical behavior of which there is irrefutable evidence. This should be done irrespective of other beneficial aspects of his or her work and of one's spiritual commitment to that teacher" [ Dalai Lama ]

  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @baremuenze:
    I do not know the book, but finally we two are having conversation. We are talking. It always takes a little time to go through the clouds :)
  • baremuenzebaremuenze May 2011
    Posts: 251
    Reply to @Roman:

    In this book, a person confronts God about all things in life - what is the life for, why there is so much cruelty in life etc. It´s a dialogue with God. You don´t believe in God, anyway I think conctent is very interesting - maybe you don´t agree.
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @baremuenze: new age spiritual popularism in my opinion;), many people talk to god these days;))
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